vm0t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Vincent Paul Mulhern) (08/08/90)
>St. Michael, pray for us. > All you holy Angels and Archangels, pray for us. > All you holy orders of blessed spirits, pray for us. > St. John the Baptist, pray for us. > St. Joseph, pray for us. > All you holy Patriarchs and Prophets, pray for us. > St. Peter, pray for us. >St. Paul, pray for us. Hey, you...why don't you pray for yourself? Where in scripture does it say that angels can pray? Where does it say that people who have died can pray? I see lots of scriptures that say they are praising God. I see lots of scriptures telling us to pray, while on earth. (also...I don't see any that say to pray for dead people...) Why would a person-in-heaven (I don't really think that's who scripture refers to with 'saint') be able to pray more effectively than we can? God doesn't listen to them more than us...he's no respector of persons. I think the whole idea of dead Christians (in the physical sense) praying for us is an excuse for our poor praying. If my prayers aren't getting answered, I try asking some neato figurehead (Like 'St. Jude...patron of impossible situations') to pray for me. "If anyone can get me some help from God, it's Jude..." Guess what...if you can't get into a position to receive God's blessing, neither can a person who has died. Likewise, our role as intercessors is right now. Not when we're in heaven. We are supposed to pray for each other, and our government, and other things, now. The Bible does not say "ask for prayers..." It says "pray." There are times when Paul asked for prayer, but he did not ever ask a person who'd died to pray for him. If prayers aren't getting answered, it's our fault, and we need to change ourselves. We don't need to get more people to help us bombard heaven's gates. (from the inside or out). That would imply that God needs to be convinced that we really deserve His help. Well, He wants to help us anyway. And we don't deserve it. I think that we need to learn how to pray, not to ask more 'saints' to come to our rescue. Why isn't there more real manifestation of God's power in the world? I hear of (and see at church, occasionally) real healings and deliverances from all sorts of oppression, but it's not on the scale it should be. If the church today were as obviously powerful as it was in the book of Acts, people would be begging to become Christians. Maybe we need to learn how to pray, and learn how to let the Holy Spirit work through us, rather than looking to 'saints' for help. The Bible says that all the promises of God are 'Yes' and 'Amen' to us... why haven't we been getting answers? If God's not lying, it must be our praying.
leesa@frith.egr.msu.edu (Anita Lees) (08/12/90)
In article <Aug.8.03.25.34.1990.12734@athos.rutgers.edu> vm0t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Vincent Paul Mulhern) writes: > >St. Paul, pray for us. > >Hey, you...why don't you pray for yourself? > > Where in scripture does it say that angels can pray? OK: 1) Satan is an angel, albeit a fallen one. 2) in Job 1:6-12, he gets a favor from God by conversation 3) ... many references to angels praising the Lord ... 4) prayer is communication with God in which one praises, gives thanks to, or asks favor from God. :. Angels pray. Very loose logic, but if you accept the definition of prayer, it should be convincing that angels do pray. >Where does it >say that people who have died can pray? In Mark 12:25, Jesus tells us that after we rise from the dead, we become as the angels. If angels pray, so do the risen dead. Now, the question becomes when do we rise from the dead -- at the last judgement, or when we die? Another possibilty would be that, although not risen, the spirits of the dead may be communicated with by us, and in turn communicate with God. In I Samuel 28:8-18, the witch of Endor calls up Samuel's spirit to tell Saul's fortune for him. How can Samuel do that unless he can communicate with either God or Satan? If God, then he is praying; if Satan, add a level of indirection. NOTE: I am not arguing here that it is better for angels or the dead to pray, just that they do or might. >I see lots of scriptures that >say they are praising God. I see lots of scriptures telling us to pray, >while on earth. (also...I don't see any that say to pray for dead >people...) II Maccabees 12:40-46, especially vv. 44-46: "for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death... Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin. (NAB)" This shows that it is possible, and in this case righteous, to pray for the dead. NOTE: this scripture does not support the practice in general, and does not deal with the difficulty of wether such prayer is necessary after Christ's resurrection. > Why would a person-in-heaven (I don't really think that's who >scripture refers to with 'saint') be able to pray more effectively than >we can? God doesn't listen to them more than us...he's no respector of >persons. People who respect the saints in heaven do not make a big distinction between the living and the dead in this respect. The Church on Earth and the Church in Heaven are both the Church. I don't think the idea is that they are more effective, just that one wants all the help one can get. There is also some humility in asking others to pray for one, again remembering that the people to whom you address your argument do not feel cut off from the deceased faithful. >I think the whole idea of dead Christians (in the > : <stuff deleted> > If prayers aren't getting answered, it's our fault, and we need to >change ourselves. We don't need to get more people to help us bombard >heaven's gates. (from the inside or out). That would imply that God >needs to be convinced that we really deserve His help. Well, He wants >to help us anyway. And we don't deserve it. I think that we need to >learn how to pray, not to ask more 'saints' to come to our rescue. Good point. I think this applies equally no matter if the saint in question is alive or dead. I believe that Christ came to right the God-humanity relationship, and that each of us is to pray to God directly. I don't see any harm if someone, out of humility, wants the saints to join with their prayers. I believe that God wants us to be a community, and if someone wants to include the angels and deceased faithful, God will credit it to them as being generous in their love of neighbor. > Why isn't there more real manifestation of God's power in the >world? I hear of (and see at church, occasionally) real healings and >deliverances from all sorts of oppression, but it's not on the scale it >should be. If the church today were as obviously powerful as it was in >the book of Acts, people would be begging to become Christians. Maybe >we need to learn how to pray, and learn how to let the Holy Spirit work >through us, rather than looking to 'saints' for help. Maybe the unbelievers would be impressed if we Christians would stop beating each other over the heads with our Bibles and start praying earnestly (in whatever way we know how) for the good of the rest of the world and its people. Maybe Jesus would be pleased with more unity of spirit and less conformity of practice, as well. If we want to let the Holy Spirit work through us, perhaps we have to be open to Him working through others in ways that don't necessarily appeal to us. After all, "no one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except in the Holy Spirit." (I Cor. 12:3, NAB) Let's give each other the benefit of the doubt. > The Bible says that all the promises of God are 'Yes' and 'Amen' to >us... why haven't we been getting answers? If God's not lying, it must >be our praying. Or our attitudes towards each other, which must affect our prayer. "Jesus is Lord"! -Anita
vm0t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Vincent Paul Mulhern) (08/12/90)
In a post I made a few days ago (same title), I wrote "Hey, you...why don't you pray for yourself?" That was directed towards the creed writer, not the person who posted it. (I shouldn't have written that in the first place). I don't mean to be a jerk. I want people to know there was no offense intended, especially not to the poster of that creed. (Needless to say, I disagree strongly with the creed, but I don't seek to offend anyone.) Slightly embarrassedly, foot in mouth for now, Vince Mulhern
kriz@skat.usc.edu (Dennis Kriz) (08/27/90)
In article <Aug.8.03.25.34.1990.12734@athos.rutgers.edu> vm0t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Vincent Paul Mulhern) writes: [Question concerning why Catholics ask the angels and saints as well as their brothers and sisters to pray on their behalf to the Lord Our God.] > >Hey, you...why don't you pray for yourself? > When Catholics ask others to pray on their behalf, it is an expression of humility. To the Protestant this may seem silly, but then to the atheist, the whole concept of prayer itself is silly. So when you ask indignantly Catholics why we don't "just pray for ourselves", remember that there is an atheist right behind you asking you why bother praying at all. dennis kriz@skat.usc.edu
thompson@athos.rutgers.edu (Marge Thompson) (08/30/90)
In article <Aug.26.22.56.49.1990.1106@athos.rutgers.edu> kriz@skat.usc.edu (Dennis Kriz) writes: > In article <Aug.8.03.25.34.1990.12734@athos.rutgers.edu> vm0t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Vincent Paul Mulhern) writes: > > > [Question concerning why Catholics ask the angels and saints as well as > their brothers and sisters to pray on their behalf to the Lord Our God.] > > > >Hey, you...why don't you pray for yourself? > > > > When Catholics ask others to pray on their behalf, it is an expression of > humility. To the Protestant this may seem silly,.... > > dennis > kriz@skat.usc.edu To this Protestant, it is not nor has it ever seemed silly. In my Church, (Lutheran) we always pray for others. We don't ask the saints to pray for us - but we do pray for each other. In fact, we have a Prayer Chain and all of the people in the chain keep those names on the list until we are told to remove them. My husband had some serious surgery a few years back. The nite before his surgery, there was a Prayer Vigil at our Church for him and one other person who was seriously ill. To this day he remembers the feelings he had that evening - he said he knew he was going to be ok because he felt the power of the prayers. I was brought up a Lutheran and went to Catholic High School so I have a good background in each religion - I feel the power of prayer is what keeps me going - and when a friend or co-worker says he/she will keep me in their prayers, I feel it - and I know its being done! marge thompson
johnb@gatech.edu (John Baldwin) (08/30/90)
In article <Aug.26.22.56.49.1990.1106@athos.rutgers.edu> kriz@skat.usc.edu (Dennis Kriz) writes: > >When Catholics ask others to pray on their behalf, it is an expression of >humility. To the Protestant this may seem silly... Not at all. Several times in the N.T., we are exhorted to pray for each other. (Here I am *again* lacking the proper references). Personally, I cannot find scriptural evidence (haven't looked deeply, either, I confess) which says I should *pray* to saints... but considering the usage of the word "saint" as "one set apart for/by God", I consider the body of believers to also be saints. I've asked my next-door-neighbor, Jeff (who's a brother in Christ) to pray for me more than once; I don't see that there's any sin in saying "and, by the way, Apostle Paul, if you can hear this, can you just reaffirm what I'm praying?" I think its important, however, to realize who our ADVOCATE is, and where our priorities and allegiances lie. -- John T. Baldwin | johnb%srchtec.uucp@mathcs.emory.edu Search Technology, Inc. | | "... I had an infinite loop, My opinions; not my employers'. | but it was only for a little while..."