coatta@cs.ubc.ca (Terry Coatta) (08/12/90)
I am curious about the degree to which the downfall of Man effected the rest of creation. Since it was Adam and Eve's choice to tuurn away from God, it is not surprising that their actions would merit the introduction of suffering and death into their lives. But the rest of creation (well, aside from the snake if you want to view it as just another creature) was good in the eyes of God. Why does it too suffer from death and decay. Is that the natural order for rest of creation? I am trying to form an idea of the extent to which the natural world (i.e. the world minus mankind) today is a reflection of that natural world which God created and saw was good in Genesis. Terry Coatta (coatta@cs.ubc.ca) Dept. of Computer Science, UBC, Vancouver BC, Canada `What I lack in intelligence, I more than compensate for with stupidity'
tp0x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Thomas Carl Price) (08/21/90)
The earth was cursed for Adam's sake, as you referred to -- but compare this with the words of (one of the minor prophets whom I forget right now; at work, no concordance) who says that in time to come the plowman will overtake the reaper, or words to that effect. In other words, the curse on the earth will be repealed when the curse of sinful nature is repealed from the resurrected elect, in the Kingdom of God. I think. I also think that this is what is meant by the repeated references to "new heavens and a new earth": an entirely restored order of things, with the curse, in general, repealed. Tom [The passage is Amos 9:13. But it seems to be talking about a restored and purified Israel, not the resurrected elect. --clh]
tom@dvnspc1.dev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) (08/24/90)
In article <Aug.12.04.23.25.1990.16713@athos.rutgers.edu> coatta@cs.ubc.ca (Terry Coatta) writes: >I am curious about the degree to which the downfall of Man effected the >rest of creation. ... Original Sin Definition of original sin: all men are born spiritually dead, and lack any original righteousness. They come into this spiritual condition by virtue of the fact that they are sons of Adam. Adam was both our natural father and the representative head of the whole human race. The term original sin expresses the concepts of imputed guilt and total depravity. As we look at the matter of original sin we must keep in mind that there is no such thing as moral neutrality. Adam was created holy, i.e. at the time of his creation he possessed original righteousness. In order to keep his holy estate he was required to obey the commandments of God perfectly (Gen. 1:16,17). This relationship between God and Adam is called the covenant of works. By his own sin he fell from a state of holiness to a state of sin. As a result of the fall God replaced this covenant of works with a covenant of grace. All the particular covenants spoken of in the OT between God and men are expressions of this one covenant of grace. The new covenant in Christ is the fulfillment of all the OT covenants, and the final expression of the covenant of grace. What is sin? Any want of conformity to, or transgression of, the law of God. Sin is the opposite of holiness. Sin is not only acts of the will, but also states of moral propensity and habit. It is not merely the intentional acts of will contrary to law, but also the native disposition to those acts, and the desires to do them not yet formed into volitions (Matt. 5:21,22,27,28). "Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death." (James 1:15; cf. Matt. 12:33,35; Matt. 7:17) In other words, we sin because we are sinners by nature, not vice versa. What is total depravity? The Westminster Confession of Faith states that the first man "became wholly defiled, in all the faculties of body and soul." Total depravity does not mean that all men are equally evil or that every man is as evil as he could possibly be, but rather that every area of man's being has come under the effects of sin so that no part is untouched. "The wicked, in the haughtiness of his countenance, does not seek Him. All his thoughts are, 'There is no God.'" (Ps. 10:4) And so Adam was reduced to a state of total depravity by his sin. It can be shown that this condition was passed on to his posterity: 1) by the law of reproduction, like begets like (Gen. 5:3; Job 14:4). 2) by the universal nature of actual sin. All men, everywhere, do that which is wrong. No one is immune from the corruption of sin. Universal effects require a universal cause. 3) by the early age at which children exhibit a desire to do that which is evil (Ps. 58:3; Ps. 51:5; Gen. 8:21). 4) by a universal opposition to the things of God (Rom. 8:7; Rom. 3:10,11). No one seeks after God! It has been suggested that some people do seek after God on their own. Since true repentance requires divine intervention, any "seeking" without the leading of the Holy Spirit is a mere illusion. 5) by the scriptures (Gen. 6:5; I Kings 8:46; Eccl. 7:20; Ps. 143:2; Gal. 3:22; Jam. 3:1,2; Eccl. 9:3; Ps. 14:2,3; Jer. 17:9). 6) by the universal nature of the penalty, the curse. Death is the punishment for sin (Gen. 2:17; Gen. 3:19; Rom. 5:12; I Cor. 15:22). Even those who have never committed any actual sins, infants and the unborn, are subjected to the penalty of death. This is the consequence of the sin of our first parents. 7) by the need of redemption. All are in need of the redeeming work of Jesus Christ. If all men were not sinners by nature, there would be no need for a universal redemption. But we know that Jesus very purpose in taking on human flesh was to save His people from their sins (Matt. 1:21; I Tim. 1:15; Mark 2:17; Gal. 2:21, 3:21). 8) by the nature of regeneration. In order to gain eternal life we must be born again. Regeneration is a radical and moral change. This can be seen by an examination of the terms used to describe it in scripture: new birth, new creation, made alive in Christ, a resurrection (John 3:5; John 5:24,25; Eph. 1:19-2:10). The agent of this change is nothing less than Almighty God Himself. What is guilt? Guilt can be defined as the obligation to punish. Thus, when we talk about original sin, we do not mean that Adam's sin was imputed to us, but rather the guilt of that sin was imputed. We did not commit Adam's sin. Common sense tells us that. But we are so closely associated in the legal consequences of his act, that we are treated as he is, on account of his act. Thus we may speak of Adam's sin being our own in the same way we would speak of Christ's righteousness being our own (II Cor. 5:21). The grounds of this legal union are twofold; 1) the natural union we have with him as the root of all mankind, and 2) the federal relation instituted in him, by God's covenant with him. This notion of a federal union is seen in verses such as Gen. 1:22,28; 3:15-29; 9:3. When God spoke to Adam and said that he should be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it, and that he should enjoy the fruit of the earth as food, and that he should keep the sabbath, He was speaking to all of Adam's children. So by virtue of this covenant we can infer that the children of Adam are included in the threat of death for disobedience (Gen. 2:17). The inference stands by reason of the established style found throughout Genesis (cf. 9:25-27; 15:7; 16:12; 17:20). In each of these cases the patriarch stands for himself and his posterity, in the meaning of the promise. But the force of this relationship is really seen in Gen. 3:15-19 where God passes sentence according to the threat of the broken covenant. The ground was cursed because of the sin of Adam, and all his children have had to labor under the effect of that curse (Gen. 5:29). This fact of imputation is found throughout scripture: 1) in the Ten Commandments (Ex. 20:5; Ex. 34:6,7; Deut. 5:9) 2) in the destruction of Dathan and Abiram (Num. 16:32) 3) in the deliverance of the household of Rahab (Jos. 6:25) 4) in the destruction of Achan and his children (Jos. 7:24,25) 5) in the sin of Eli (I Sam. 2:31) 6) in the sin of Amalek (I Sam. 15:2,3) 7) in the sin of Saul (II Sam. 21:1-9) 8) in the sin of Jeroboam (I Kings 14:9,10) 9) in the sin of Gehazi (II Kings 5:27) 10) in the generation of Jews contemporary with Jesus (Matt. 23:35) 11) in those who called for Jesus' crucifixion (Matt. 27:25) (See also the examples of Canaan, Esau, Moab & Ammon.) So nations are chastised with their rulers, and children with their parents. While not exactly identical with the case of Adam and his posterity, if God is willing to inflict temporal punishment on children for the sins of their father, the thought of Him inflicting eternal punishment based upon a paternal, federal relationship is not scripturally unreasonable. If we look at man's unregenerate condition we will see that he is spiritually dead. Since scripture never speaks of an unregenerate person being "made dead" after birth, we must conclude that he is born into this condition. If he is born into this condition, then this condition of death must be a curse for something. So either man has been tried and found guilty "in Adam", or he is under a curse for no guilt at all. If the latter is true then God is indeed a capricious Sovereign. The greatest biblical argument for the imputation of Adam's sin is found in Romans 5 and I Cor. 15. In both passages the parallel is drawn between Adam and Christ. In I Cor. 15:21,22,45-49, Adam and Christ are compared as the first and second Adam. In all things they are contrasted, except they share one thing in common. Verse 22 says, "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive." They both represent a people. Adam represents all natural mankind as a federal head. All men die because they are children of the first Adam. Christ also represents His people. In Christ all His children are made alive. Christ saves His people by imputing His righteousness to them. By inference, Adam must have condemned his children by imputation as well. In Romans 5:12-19 the assertion is made that all men sinned and were condemned in Adam (v. 12), that death, the established penalty for sin, was passed on to all, even those who committed no actual sin (v. 13,14), judgement and condemnation came from one transgression (v. 15,16), death reigns through one transgression, and the gift of righteousness comes by one, Jesus Christ (v. 17), just as in Christ many are constituted righteous, so in Adam many are constituted sinners (v. 18,19). An objection may be raised by appealing to verses such as Deut. 24:16, "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers, everyone shall be put to death for his own sin." It may be said that if something is wrong for man to do (i.e. put someone to death for the sin of another), it must also be wrong for God. But this is not necessarily true. God righteously puts millions of people to death every year, yet man is forbidden from doing so (Ex. 20:13). God's justice is not man's justice. Secondly, the object of civil government is different from that of God's government. The purpose of civil government is to maintain the public order by making an example of criminals (Ex. 21:21; Num. 15:32-36; Rom. 13:3). Now as to the guilt of children the matter is clear; children do not stand guilty before society for the sins of their father. If the ruler were to shed the blood of children for the sin of the father, that would be shedding innocent blood, humanly speaking. It is not the business of the civil ruler in this regard. But note that the punishment of Achan, Saul's children, etc. were judgements and acts of God, not the civil ruler. These cases were exceptional. It must also be remembered that all parents do not act as federal head in the same way that Adam did for the human race. God made a covenant of works between Himself and Adam and his posterity. This was a unique covenant, unduplicated in history. Why is the concept of original sin important? That one's view of original sin will be decisive of his whole system of theology, is obvious from the familiar truth; that the remedy is determined by the disease. As is the diagnosis, so will be the medical treatment. (R.L. Dabney, Lectures in Systematic Theology, p. 350) If we adopt the view that man is innocent at birth and that by his own actions he receives the penalty for sin, then our understanding of the person and work of Jesus Christ will be defective. We will arrive at an erroneous view of regeneration, faith, repentance, and sanctification. Salvation, like our journey into sin, will become chiefly an act of the human will rather than divine Grace. Bibliography Loraine Boettner, _Studies in Theology_, Phillipsburg, NJ, P & R, 1947 John Calvin, _Institutes of the Christian Religion_, Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 1979 R.L. Dabney, _Lectures in Systematic Theology_, Grand Rapids, Baker, 1985 Charles Hodge, _Systematic Theology_, Grand Rapids, Eerdmans, 1979 Morton H. Smith, _Testimony_, Philadelphia, GCP, 1986 _The Westminster Confession of Faith & Larger and Shorter Catechisms_ -- Tom Albrecht
tp0x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Thomas Carl Price) (08/27/90)
>The earth was cursed for Adam's sake, as you referred to -- but compare this >with the words of (one of the minor prophets whom I forget right now; at work, >no concordance) who says that in time to come the plowman will overtake the >reaper, or words to that effect. In other words, the curse on the earth will be >repealed when the curse of sinful nature is repealed from the resurrected >elect, in the Kingdom of God. >[The passage is Amos 9:13. But it seems to be talking about a restored >and purified Israel, not the resurrected elect. --clh] Again at work without my bible. But they would be the same thing. The resurrected elect will be spiritual Israel, (heirs of the promises to Abraham and his children in the spirit) restored and purified. Tom again [What I meant was that Amos seems to envision a new earthly Israel. This seems pretty clear from the following verses, which talks about rebuilding the ruined cities and replanting the land. By resurrected elect I assume you are thinking of something happening in eternity, not on earth. These are not necessarily contradictory, at least if you believe that prophecies can have meanings on several levels. I was simply trying to clarify the literal meaning. --clh]
johnb@gatech.edu (John Baldwin) (08/30/90)
In article <Aug.24.03.59.12.1990.29332@athos.rutgers.edu> tom@dvnspc1.dev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes: > >Definition of original sin: all men are born spiritually dead, and >lack any original righteousness....[and so on]... Question: why do we refer to the Fall of Adam as "original sin?" If we're being super-accurate, wasn't the pride of Lucifer the "original" (as in "first")? [This is not a rhetorical question; I really want to know.] BTW, while I have the net-bandwidth-floor, I thought the explanation of the difference between total depravity and utter depravity was *excellent.* ^^^^^ ^^^^^ It seems to me that many people mistake one for the other... -- John T. Baldwin | johnb%srchtec.uucp@mathcs.emory.edu Search Technology, Inc. | | "... I had an infinite loop, My opinions; not my employers'. | but it was only for a little while..."
johnw@stew.ssl.berkeley.edu (John Warren) (09/02/90)
[I'm a bit unclear who wrote what in the following, but it appears that Terry Coatta asked about the degree to which the downfall of man affected the rest of creation, and Tom Albrecht replied with comments about original sin. Tom (if it is Tom) said that Adam was created holy, and in order to continue in this holy estate he had to keep God's commandments perfectly. This he calls a covenant of works. In response to Adam's fall, God instituted a covenant of grace. All the OT covenants are expressions of this covenant of grace. The new covenant of Christ is its final expression. --clh] The relationship between God and Adam was a covenant of faith, not works. Doesn't matter that it was in the Old Testament. Adam and Eve trusted God until that day that Satan convinced them to eat from the tree. Satan convinced them that God didn't mean what He said about dying after eating of the tree of knowledge; subsequently, they died. >What is sin? Any want of conformity to, or transgression of, the law of >God. Sin is the opposite of holiness. Sin is not only acts of the will, >but also states of moral propensity and habit. It is not merely the >intentional acts of will contrary to law, but also the native disposition >to those acts, and the desires to do them not yet formed into volitions >(Matt. 5:21,22,27,28). > That which is not of faith is sin. John Warren "...into the narrow lanes, I can't stumble or stay put..." --Dylan