lieuwen@mycella.cs.wisc.edu (Dan Lieuwen) (09/14/90)
NOT INTENDED TO PUBLISH--A RESPONCE REQUESTED FROM MODERATOR >>I think your idea of separation of church and state may be a bit too >>cynical. I certainly have values that I believe it would be improper >>to force on others through the State. I think others do too. --clh] I'm not sure I follow what you are saying. I don't see it as being cynical at all. I think that history of church/state relationships have shown that too cozy a relationship leads inevitably to 2 bad results 1) suppression of those who don't accept the dogma the state approves 2) a decay in the quality of spirituality of the government church I wasn't saying that the government couldn't make laws based on religious morals that have to do with conduct. I in fact stated "When people talk of "separation of church and state", they often merely mean that those they disagree with should keep their values out of politics. However, no one believes that they themselves should keep their own values out of politics." Or is this the part you objected to? Please clarify. The article was: When people talk of "separation of church and state", they often merely mean that those they disagree with should keep their values out of politics. However, no one believes that they themselves should keep their own values out of politics. ************************************************************************** However, the constitutional prohibition against the (federal government's) establishment of a religion (remember Massachussetts had a state church well into the 1800s--set up under Samuel Adams when he was governor) makes good sense. It protects the religious sensibilities of those who don't accept the dogma of the state church. However, it also is beneficial to the church that would have had that privilege. In a conversation recently with a Greek friend about the treatment of evangelicals in Greece, he pointed out that there is a long-standing law against proseletization. He asked what is wrong with enforcing the law--it is after all a law. That got me thinking. I see several problems with such a law. I find it ironic that the church should sanction the persecution of someone for speaking of their faith. Many martyrs died for breaking laws or customs against outside interferance in the realm of religion. There are also serious problems when Caesar and the Church get too friendly. While this may be beneficial to certain churchmen, it is not beneficial to the church. Just as protected industries become less concerned about quality and price, so too churches that don't have to deal with competion in the realm of ideas become lethargic. People become complacent about their faith. Having competitors forces a church to stay alive because it forces people to think about what they believe. There are other problems with an overly cozy church/state relationship. The state always wants something from the church. It wants moral sanction for acts the church should condemn. It often wants the church to do its dirty work. The Spanish state used Dominicans in the Inquisition. East Germany's government used Protestant pastors as spies--and Romania's government did the same with Orthodox priests. These actions lead people away from the church in disgust--either from a particular Christian community or from faith. The state also uses the church for cultural aims. A recent example is mentioned in Gilquist's BECOMING ORTHODOX. A Greek bureaucrat put pressure on the Patriarch of Constantinople to break an appointment with officials of the Evangelical Orthodox Church. The bureaucrat feared an influx of evangelicals would weaken the Hellenistic character of the Greek Orthodox Church. Culture is important, but the church is called to transcend it. Unfortunately, the Patriarch acceded to the pressure. That the highest official of the Orthodox Church cares more about the opinion of a bureacrat than the unity of the church is a tragedy. ==>For your information, I am a Calvinist who is thinking about becoming Orthodox (and the people mentioned in the book above became Orthodox in spite of the incident mentioned above). Dan Dan -- --Dan