gilham@csl.sri.com (Fred Gilham) (09/17/90)
Frank Farkas writes:
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Now, if one doesn't believe in the pre-existence, than they have a
couple of interesting questions which they need to answer. Since God
the Father is the Father of our spirit, when did he created us? At the
moment of conception, at the time of the quickening or at the moment
of birth? Since there is no biblical answer to these questions it
doesn't mean that God the Father has not created our spirit. The
question is, when. There is nothing in the Bible which rules out
pre-existence.
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In Genesis 2.7 we read
``Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed
into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.''
One of the problems I have with ``pre-existence of the spirit'' is
that I think a person is a whole being. The creation discussed above
is a two-part process: the making of the physical body followed by
God's breathing life into it. After that, we can talk about a living
being, not before.
A person is a physical and spiritual being, with roots in each realm.
The personality, the thing that makes us uniquely ourselves, is a
spiritual phenomenon, but it is not meaningful to talk about a
personality with no way of manifesting itself, and the physical realm
appears, at least from the above passage, to be God's chosen
environment for our personalities to manifest themselves.
--
Fred Gilham gilham@csl.sri.com
``Man was meant to lead with his chin. He is only worth knowing with
his guard down, his head up, and his heart rampant on his sleeve.''
-- Robert Farrar Caponfarkas@qual.eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) (09/20/90)
[Frank Farkas argued for pre-existence of human souls (i.e. before their birth on earth), saying that there is no Biblical position on the question of exactly when our souls are created, i.e. at conception, birth, etc. [There is also no agreement on where they come from. Some speculation says from the parents, others as a special creation by God. --clh] Fred Gilham replies with Gen. 2:7, with God breathing life into man. Fred argues that there can be no spirit without the body. --clh] If you mean a living being as you see yourself when you look into a mirror, you are right. The whole issue, if the spirit without the body is whole, is another subject. I believe that it is not. This is the reason why Jesus was resurrected with a body and this is the reason why we all going to be resurrected with our bodies. In fact, resurrection implies that we will get our bodies back. However, I am not sure what your comment has to do with the issue, if there is preexistence, or not. The Bible speaks of spirits. In fact Jesus went into the spirit prison to preach the Gospel, following his death on the cross and prior to his resurrection (refer to I Peter 3:18-19 and 4:6). The quote from Genesis you used can be understood only in a figurative sense. It doesn't answer my question which was: "Since God the Father is the Father of our spirit, when did he created us? At the moment of conception, at the time of the quickening or at the moment of birth?" >A person is a physical and spiritual being, with roots in each realm. >The personality, the thing that makes us uniquely ourselves, is a >spiritual phenomenon, but it is not meaningful to talk about a >personality with no way of manifesting itself, and the physical realm >appears, at least from the above passage, to be God's chosen >environment for our personalities to manifest themselves. >-- I agree with your comments above. In fact let me qoute from a modern day revelation regarding this: D&C 93:33-35 ============ "For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fullness of joy;" "And when separated, man can not receive a fulness of joy." "The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea man is the tabernacle of God, even temples; and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that temple" >Fred Gilham gilham@csl.sri.com >``Man was meant to lead with his chin. He is only worth knowing with >his guard down, his head up, and his heart rampant on his sleeve.'' > -- Robert Farrar Capon This whole issue warrants a serious study of the Bible passages which deal with this subject. The answers it not so simple, and can't be decided upon quickly. As I said, I don't believe that the Bible has no support for the preexistence of spirits. Indeed, if we accept the fact that our spirit lives and waits after the death of the body for the resurrection, than why is it so difficult to believe that our spirits waited to receive a mortal body prior to our birth into this world? From the information which Peter provides to us about Jesus going into the spirit world to preach the gospel, we can conclude that the spirits without the body are perfectly capable of undestanding the gospel of Jesus Christ. They can think and make decisions, but obviously can't do many things which requires a body. This is the reason we all look forward to the resurrection, whether still in the mortal body or with out, that we may have a perfect and eithernal union of our spirits and our physical bodies. Some food for thought. With brotherly love, Frank [I believe Fred is arguing for the position that the spirit or soul is not a "thing", but is a person's "aliveness". That is, a person is a unitary thing, not a collection of mind and body, which can exist separately. In that case, spirit can't come into existence separately from the rest of the person, and certainly can't exist before the body. --clh]