franco@iro.umontreal.ca (Jonathan Franco) (09/04/90)
On Wednesday September 5th, 1990, at 9 00 p.m., those willing to
contribute for a peaceful world are cordially invited to meditate or pray
during 30 minutes.
No matter the religion or the meditation type: it is the will power that
is important. Just positive thinking is needed (love, light and peace). Hate
and aggressiveness never bring harmony.
Those who practice visualization can imagine light rays that bound all
human beings to each other to form a white sphere around the planet. Those who
think in term of energy would ask God to pass part of his Energy through them
to allow his Love to spread out on the planet. Those willing to ask assistance
to light entities may adress Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, Vishnu or others: they
all are with us. Those who feel compassion for Gaia (Earth conscious) should
send her all their love. Those who prefer to think can conceive scenarios
without violence to solve this conflict in a peaceful way. Every ways are good
when intentions are sincere.
Simultaneousness is important to increase the efficiency of this event.
It is also suggested to pray or meditate in small groups. All those oasis of
light will merge together in a common effort.
Please note the hour difference:
9 00 p.m. (Eastern time: New York, Montreal)
8 00 p.m. (Central time: Chicago, Winnipeg)
7 00 p.m. (Mountain time: Denver, Calgary)
6 00 p.m. (Pacific time: Los Angeles, Vancouver)
A session will take place in Europe at 7 00 p.m. (Greenwich time).
Please distribute this message before Wednesday
(photocopy, FAX, phone, radio, computer network)
Example: call 5 to 10 people and ask them to do the same.
--
=============================================
= Jonathan Franco, (514) 342-2108 =
= (514) 343-6111 Ex 3969 =
=============================================
[I hope no one finds this offensive. Calling Christians to join those
of other faiths in prayer seems consonant with the purpose of this
group, though this particular call has a certain new age flavor to
it... --clh]jrossi@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Joe "Bart" Rossi) (09/14/90)
In article <Sep.9.01.37.04.1990.9871@athos.rutgers.edu> crf@tomato.princeton.edu (Charles Ferenbaugh) writes: >I agree, we as Christians cannot, in good conscience, join in such an >activity. The following analogy comes to mind: > >Three people are watching a house being burglarized. >#1 says: I'll help - I'll call the police. >#2 says: I'll help - I'll call Superman. >#3 says: I'll help - I'll call the mafia. >At this point #1 walks away, unable to consider #2 and #3 as being >"helpful." Huh? Why walk away? Why not call the police anyway? Even if you judge #2 and #3 as being "unhelpful" your abdication of responsibility here is not very loving towards the people's whose house is being burglarized. How about: #1 says: I'll help - I'll pray to God #2 says: I'll brave my life and try to apprehend them. #3 says: I'll alert the neighbors #4 says: I'll call the police Ironically, #1 in this case is being the least helpful. Just food for thought. love, Joe -- "The affirmation of one's own life-the acceptance of one's destiny as it manifests itself in each moment-is the supreme act of faith."
gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) (09/14/90)
(I'm piggy-backing onto Larry's response because I lost the original posting by Mr. Franco. Think you can carry your brother for a while, Larry? ;-)) In article <Sep.6.03.33.49.1990.26015@athos.rutgers.edu> lae@io.UUCP (Larry Enos) writes: >In article <Sep.4.03.50.24.1990.26923@athos.rutgers.edu>, >franco@iro.umontreal.ca (Jonathan Franco) asks us to join in an >organized prayer/meditation ritual for peace. The moderator approved >this posting, and added: > >> >> [I hope no one finds this offensive. Calling Christians to join those >> of other faiths in prayer seems consonant with the purpose of this >> group, though this particular call has a certain new age flavor to >> it... --clh] > >Yes. I am very offended. First, I realize what the general charter of this group is. And from that view, I can't say that I was offended. What Mr. Franco asked for has been asked before in other arenas. I'm not upset with the request because it is based upon a worldly notion of what Christianity is. Paul has some advice in this regard: "But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strife. "And the servant of the Lord must not strive, but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; "And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." (2 Tim. 2:23-26, KJV) However, where I would be upset is if I found out that Christians were participating in a form of worship that is not to the living God. The worship of a Christian belongs to Jehovah God, His Son, the Lord Jesus, and His Holy Spirit. And part of worship is prayer. Prayer is a unique privilege for the saints. It is the "WATS" line between us and God. Through prayer we speak to the Holy One of Israel. How can we then join non-Christians, worshippers of other gods, in praying? What many of conversation do the children of Light have with the children of Darkness? Jesus clearly states who He is in the text. I makes no difference if people accept that or not for the Truth does not change. He is immutable. Jesus is the chief cornerstone. Anyone who falls on this Stone is broken; and on whom this Stone falls, they are shattered to dust. In speaking of who He is, to the Jews first, and now to us today, He says that before Abraham was, He is (I am--ego eimi). He is the Way, the Truth, the Life; no man comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ. It is this that prevents me from bowing in prayer with non-Christians. I do, however, share their concern for peace in the world. And in that I am concerned about this, I will prayer about it to my Father. I will pray with the people who are called by His name. Chuck, I understand that within the bounds of the religious tradition that you come from praying with non-Christians might not be seen in the same light. I cannot instruct you, a grown man, in any of this. The Holy Spirit must lead in these matters. But like Joshua, I say that for me and my house, I will serve only the LORD God, Jehovah, and Him only. Brother, I cannot worship, in any form or manner, with non-Christians. For me, it would be sin. And I want those of you who are not Christians to please understand that this is not to say that I do not love you. What I have is yours if you have need. But when it comes to spiritual matters, I have only one God, one Faith, and one Spirit. There are no others based upon what Jesus said. You need to understand that my view, and that of many others, of Christianity is not of a religion. Rather, I see it a a way of life, a relationship with the true and living God. This relationship is possible only through Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior. He is my propitiation for sin. He died to assure my salvation. He was resurrected for my justification. He lives today and will soon return to claim what is rightfully His and to call His elect to Him. For me, religion is man reaching out to God; Christianity is God reaching out to man. If Jesus was taken from Christianity, it would no more be Christianity. It would probably be an anemic moral code. Jesus is the sole focus of Christianity. He is the author and finisher of our Faith. And Christians are joint heirs with Him. He calls us brothers and sisters. And the most wonderful thing of all, this is available to all who would believe, even upon His name. Because He lives, Gene
lae@io.UUCP (Larry Enos) (09/18/90)
In article <Sep.13.03.03.08.1990.24500@athos.rutgers.edu>, jrossi@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Joe "Bart" Rossi) writes: > > Our understanding of God is not complete, and many people aren't > sure whether to call God God, Allah, Jesus, Jehova, Krishna. At > a certain point, though, at least with me, you realize that > the Nameless will hear anyone who in their minds believes they > are seeking the Creator, whether or not they have his name > correct or not. God knows it is He that they are seeking, > and he knows that they are sincere. > > And prayer works for those who pray to Allah as well as for the > those who pray to Christ. The Devil may be able to lie but > I highly doubt his ability to answer the prayers of those who > seek the God Of Love, AS THEY UNDERSTAND HIM. > You stated correctly that your understanding of God is not complete. God is not nameless, as you believe, at least not to orthodox Christians and Jews who have believed in Him for thousands of years. Moreover, you cannot approach Him using whatever name you choose. Consider the following verses from the Old Testament, which is the unique source that both Christians and Jews recognize for understanding about God: Exodus 6:2-3,6 God spoke further to Moses and said to him, "I am YHVH; and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but my Name, YHVH, I did not make known to them. ... "Say therefore to the sons of Israel, I am YHVH." Isaiah 43:10,11 "You are my witnesses," declares YHVH, "and My servant whom I have chosen, in order that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me. I, even I, am YHVH; and there is no other savior besides Me." Therefore, to orthodox Christians and Jews, YHVH (which may be rendered as Jehovah) is the Name of the one true God. Likewise orthodox Christians believe that this same God exists in the person of Jesus Christ. To us, the name Jesus (which is a rendering of the Hebrew name Jeheshua, which can be translated as `YHVH Savior') is the name that God has now ordained by which men can be saved. Consider the following verse: Acts 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved. Therefore, I cannot agree with you that you can approach God by any name. You might call this bigotry, but that is only because you do not understand the importance of His Name. To those who know Him, God's Name is His Person; and to approach Him, you must use His Name, as stated in the following hymn: How we love the glorious Name, the Name of Jesus. It's the Name above all names on earth and in Heaven. As we breath this precious Name, darkness and death cannot remain, for we call and get the Person of that Name. If you call Allah, Buddha, Gaia, Krishna, etc., you might get those persons (although it's unlikely since they either never existed or are now dead), but you will never get the unique, true, living God. Sincerely, Larry Enos (one who calls on His Name)
howard@53iss6.waterloo.ncr.com (Howard Steel) (09/18/90)
In article <Sep.13.02.45.48.1990.24149@athos.rutgers.edu> mgobbi@cs.ubc.ca (Mike Gobbi) writes: >in article 4016, Howard writes: >I think that a >better response would be for our traveller to reply that his religion >forbade him to pray to other gods, but that he was thankful for the >offer and would pray to Yahweh while the local prayed to his own gods. >This reply respects the beliefs of the other, while not pretending to >follow (as "praying in your own way and keeping quiet" does) foreign >gods. I suppose I chose a poor analogy; try this one on for size. You are addressed by a Christian leader who says at 1 o'clock on Friday he hopes all people would join him in praying to God to help end the middle east crisis peacefully. You agree with his sentiments and methods and thus take the time to pray. Would you be offended to learn that a number of neo-pagans heard the same call to prayer and decided to pray in their own way to their own god/gods, or perform a ceremony to accomplish the same thing? My point is simply that the intention is correct and righteous by Christian standards, so why refuse to take part because of a disagreement of method. / / / / / / / / / / :-(I Think, Therefore I Am, I Think :-) / / / / / / / / / / / Howard.Steel@Waterloo.NCR.COM NCR CANADA LTD. - 580 Weber St. N / / (519)884-1710 Ext 570 Waterloo, Ont., N2J 4G5 / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /
geoff@uunet.uu.net (Geoff Allen) (09/18/90)
I wrote (concerning praying in an organized effort that made Christian prayer to God equivalent to meditation to create positive energy): >> "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers..." > And mls@sfsup.att.com (Mike Siemon) responded: >For the love of God! Paul is talking about *marriage*, about >a lifelong union in one flesh. How do you get that? I know that the verse is most often applied to marriage, but there is nothing in the context to indicate that this is the only application. Before this passage, Paul is discussing the Ministry of Reconciliation and his efforts to minister to the Corinthians. Then comes the section about being yoked with unbelievers. Then he goes back to addressing the Corinthians and mentions the results of his previous letter. I see nothing anywhere in there indicating that marriage is the topic. In fact, Paul concludes the 'yoked' section with: Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God. II Cor. 7:1 Sounds rather broad in scope to me. > Even if you do think of all >non-Christians as "sevants of Belial" and spiritual enemies, >are we not taught to pray *for* our enemies? Absolutely. > Is it really >so hard to pray *with* them, for the peace of God? You need >not frame your prayers in non-Christian ways, you may wish >to avoid public prayer with them in their forms or "on their >terms" -- Which is what this particular call was. It implied that there was no difference between Christian prayer and meditation on Vishnu (or whatever). By participating _in_this_particular_organized_effort_, it seems to me that Christians would be implying that they agree with that viewpoint. >Some of the responses I have seen to this request for prayer >have sounded a lot more like bigotry than like Christianity. I've never intended to sound like a bigot. But I do believe that New Agers (for example) are deluded and the last thing I should do is encourage their beliefs and practices. -- Geoff Allen \ Since we live by the Spirit, uunet!pmafire!geoff \ let us keep in step with the Spirit. bigtex!pmafire!geoff \ -- Gal. 5:25 (NIV)
carroll@beaver.cs.washington.edu (Jeff Carroll) (09/18/90)
In article <Sep.9.00.56.51.1990.9645@athos.rutgers.edu> howard@53iss6.waterloo.ncr.com (Howard Steel) writes: >In article <Sep.6.04.13.17.1990.26221@athos.rutgers.edu> pmafire!geoff@uunet.uu.net >(Geoff Allen) writes: >>[franco@iro.umontreal.ca (Jonathan Franco) called for a common time >>of prayer for world peace. The call was directed towards people of >>many religions, but had a rather new age flavor... >>This brings up an interesting question. *Should* Christians join this >>sort of activity?... >>...by participating in this particular effort to heighten the >>consciousness or whatever in the Gulf, Christians would be, in effect, >>giving their approval to the other ``methods'' and ``gods,'' and >>agreeing that ``they are all with us'' and it doesn't matter if one >>prays to *the* God or to Vishnu. >The fear of the other is so entrenched in some "Christians" that they will >cut off their nose to spite their face. Let's say you were a visitor to >a foreign country and your child had fallen ill. A local who worships >the sun and the moon and the stars, has become aware of your plight and tells >you that "I will beseech the sun to drive the night breezes from your childs >body; come join me". You of course being an elightened Christian would of >course reply "No thanks, I don't belive in any of that mumbo jumbo, I pray to >God the Father, Creator of heaven and earth...". I think it would be much >wiser, more Christian and in keeping with the intent of prayer, if you simply >prayed in your way and kept quiet about it. The savage pagan you met was >exhibiting exemplory Christian attributes, the least you could is the same. I hope no one is of the opinion that we should deliberately *not pray* about the situation in the Gulf because some new age loony asks us to do so. I hope that each of us was already praying about this before this invitation arose. For me, it is easy to share prayer with people whose doctrinal and sacramental orientations differ widely from my own. It is often not so easy to share other features of the spiritual life - sacraments, liturgy, etc. While I grew up in the Church of the Nazarene and the United Methodist Church, the things that are important to me in worship are so badly mangled by the Methodists (Presbyterians, Congregationalists, Disciples, etc.; the Nazarenes do a better job, in their own way) that I find it difficult to attend their services, and I would prefer that they stay away from mine unless they are willing to attend a confirmation class. The "cult-bashing" that goes on in this newsgroup is almost amusing to me sometimes, since I often am able to spiritually identify with the victim group (be they Mormon, JW, SDA, Unitarian, or whatever) nearly as much or more than the supposedly orthodox Protestant group to which the basher belongs. On the other hand, there are limits to what I can accept as "prayer", too. They have usually to do with my ability to affirm that we are all praying to the same God - thus it would be difficult for me to join in the application of the Maharishi Technology of the Unified Field (see April 5 Wall Street Journal for details) or other such "new age" stuff. I think that, were I to be confronted by a person making such a request, I would invite him/her to accompany me to our daily Evening Prayer service (which, admittedly, I usually attend only when officiating - far too seldom.) The general issue that seems to be arising here is how far it is proper for Christians to collaborate with members of other religions. I think most people who have posted in this thread would oppose belonging to "Associated Churches" groups which include synagogues, mosques, and Bahai and Buddhist groups along with Christians. I would agree inasmuch as such groups tend to engage in what I consider to be betrayal of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in favor of an egalitarian mishmash which professes no firm belief in anything. Jeff Carroll carroll@atc.boeing.com
hall@vice.ico.tek.com (Hal Lillywhite) (09/23/90)
In article <Sep.18.03.17.31.1990.8813@athos.rutgers.edu> lae@io.UUCP (Larry Enos) writes: >God is not nameless, as you believe, at least not to orthodox >Christians and Jews who have believed in Him for thousands of years. >Moreover, you cannot approach Him using whatever name you choose. (Larry goes on to claim that we must address God as Jehovah or the equivalent or we are worshiping a false god.) Larry, I think you are taking this a bit far. I see no reason why the same God cannot have different names in different cultures. In fact the Islamic peoples are rather adamant that they are worshipping the same God we are, just under a different name. I even remember seeing a Bible (a Catholic version I think, anybody able to specifically identify it?) which at least in the Old Testament used the term Allah for God. Please don't assume that because somebody speaks a different language or has a different culture that they and their religion are somehow inferior to us. (C.S. Lewis has an interesting presentation of this in his book, _Out of the Silent Planet_.) As far as the original question goes, I don't think Christians were being asked to join in New Age worship. I think the request was simply for everybody to pray for peace, certainly a worthy endeavor. Let the New Agers do it their way while we do it ours. "Prove [examine] all things, hold fast that which is good." (1 Thes 5:21) We can examine this statement and determine that praying for peace is good even if the person who suggested it believes some things which are not.
mike@turing.cs.unm.edu (Michael I. Bushnell) (09/23/90)
In article <Sep.18.03.17.31.1990.8813@athos.rutgers.edu> lae@io.UUCP (Larry Enos) writes:
Therefore, I cannot agree with you that you can approach God by any
name. You might call this bigotry, but that is only because you do
not understand the importance of His Name.
...
If you call Allah, Buddha, Gaia, Krishna, etc., you might get those
persons (although it's unlikely since they either never existed or are
now dead), but you will never get the unique, true, living God.
I wouldn't put it this way, and I'm somewhat dismayed that the author
characterized his ideas as typical of Jews and Christians.
On an exegetic basis, there is considerable debate about the meaning
of the tetragrammaton. It is traditionally translated into most
languages elliptically rather than as a proper name. Most English
bibles use the word "LORD" written in small caps, following a
tradition started (I think) by the KJV. Most Christians don't think
there is a special import to the name YHWH as a proper name. Exegesis
of that passage in Exodus, therefore, tends to focus on it as a
variant of the verb to be.
Also, note that Allah is Arabic for God. It is the direct
translation. The Qur'an refers to Allah as the same god as YHWH.
Arabic Bibles uniformly use Allah as we use God. I don't know what
they use for the tetragrammaton.
--
Michael I. Bushnell \ This above all; to thine own self be true
LIBERTE, EGALITE, FRATERNITE \ And it must follow, as the night the day,
mike@unmvax.cs.unm.edu /\ Thou canst not be false to any man.
CARPE DIEM / \ Farewell: my blessing season this in thee!garyh@crash.cts.com (Gary Hipp) (09/23/90)
[This is in response to Gene Gross' comment on a call to prayer that included those from religions, and seemed based on a "new age" basis. Gene finds that prayer with non-Christians is wrong, at least for him, because it compromises our call to exclusive allegiance to Christ. --clh] First, I want to encourage you to stick with your convictions as I know you must do, but let me suggest that at least once a week you are probably praying with a whole mess of non-Christians right in your own church. You would not be bound with these people or in partnership with them. Let your light shine so the new agers can see the living and true God. Yet, do not be deceived. Bad company corrupts good morals. Your brother in Christ--Gary.