atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Alan T. Terlep) (09/14/90)
Greetings all, I really don't know if this is the appropriate forum, but I've been troubled by several questions of faith lately and I haven't been able to find someone to guide me around here. After reading this newsgroup I have a feeling that I'll be able to get needed insight from this group. First, some personal background. I'm seventeen years old and a sophomore in college at Oakland University. I'm about to be confirmed as a Catholic after about three years out of the church. A wasn't baptized until my parents felt I was old enough to voice my own opinion (about 8). Both my parents were indifferent Catholics, although my mother became a religious ed director after my parents divorce. I currently live with my father and stepmother. Second, I will say that the coldly logical part of my brain is still surprised about my confirmation. My decision to get confirmed was the first of several decisions I've made based wholly on nonrationality. One day I woke up and knew that I should get confirmed. It was, to say the least, unusual, although I have had other similar experiences since. The problem is that I feel distanced from the standard experiences that I hear about from most religious people. I don't agree with many of the principles of the Catholic Church, but nonetheless I feel drawn to it by God-- the same God that tells me that the Church isn't right. The biggest difference I have is that I can't see how a loving God would force people to choose a certain way to Him. For me, the phrase "no one comes to the Father but through me" has a less literal meaning--that to find God one must learn to see God in humans, not try to find Him through obscure, internal rituals--although prayer and meditation are certianly necessary. Essentially, I believe that anyone who sees God in man and worships that aspect of God as well as His more widely recognized God-in-God aspect is being a good human being and will be saved. Also, the circle of friends I travel in is notoriously anti-religious. If they were simply providing peer pressure it would be one thing, but I find that I agree with many of their sentiments about the negative aspects of Christianity. I find myself agreeing with them and yet uninterested in changing my course. Trouble is, I know right now that I will do things frowned upon not just by the Catholic Church but by most Christian denominations, not because of weakness but because I believe they are right. How do I reconcile my beliefs with the beliefs of my chosen religion? The second question is this. How do we reconcile our wealth with "It is harder for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to pass into the Kingdom of God?" -- Alan Terlep "Violence is the last refuge of the Oakland University, Rochester, MI incompetent." atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu --Isaac Asimov [My most specific advice is to realize that becoming a Christian is something that takes a lifetime, and not to be overly worried if you can't see how things will turn out. If you see differences between your beliefs and practices and those of your church, the most useful thing you can do is to pray about them. Maybe you are doing things that are genuinely wrong, or at least wrong for you, and God will lead you to change. Maybe there are areas where your church is wrong, or at least wrong for you. That may lead you to respectfully dissent in some areas, or eventually to find another church which is better for you. But if you are basically just starting on your faith journey, it's difficult for you to know at this point. One characteristic many Christians have commented about is that when God leads them, they often end up somewhere very different than they had expected. The statement "no one comes to the Father but through me" can be read two ways. One is exclusive: Anyone who does not accept Christ in the way we believe they should is damned. Another is inclusive: anyone who comes to the Father *is* coming through Christ. They may start out hearing only the faint echo of his voice, and not know where it is coming from, but eventually (and I believe that in some cases it may not even be in this life) they will come to know Christ and know that their salvation is from him. Of course the disciples had the same reaction you did to the comment about wealth: "Then who can be saved?" Jesus' answer was "For people it is impossible, but not for God; for God all things are possible." I.e. wealth is a serious spiritual danger, but God can save us from dangers. I leave open whether he saves us by helping us realize that we have to get rid of our wealth or by preserving us from its dangers. Indeed this may be different for different people. --clh]
sdeering@athena.mit.edu (09/18/90)
In article <Sep.14.02.04.58.1990.9080@athos.rutgers.edu> Alan T. Terlep writes: |> Greetings all, |> The second question is this. How do we reconcile our wealth with "It is |> harder for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to |> pass into the Kingdom of God?" Alan, If you look at the context of this statement by Jesus involving the rich young man, you can see that Jesus wasn't talking about the wealth itself being the problem, but the affect that the money had on the rich man. Jesus saw the the rich young man was really close to commiting his life totally to God, but that the riches where something that he held in higher esteem than knowing God. When he asked him about the Law the young man replied, "All these I have kept."( Matthew 19:20). What he lacked had to do with his attitude toward his wealth, not his wealth as a thing he had. Someone once said that in this case he didn't have the wealth, the wealth "had" him. It had such a hold on his life and he placed in such high esteem, that when God himself told him to give it away and follow him, he refused. The Apostle Paul said in his letter to Timothy, "Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. In this way they will lay up treasure for themsleves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that the may take hold of the life that is truly life..."(1 Timothy 6:17-19). I am a witness to the fact that God wants us to have our priorities straight in this life and what we put at the top is very important. If you look at both the Old and New testaments you can see that God's emphasis is always on placing a realtionship with him first in your life above everything else, to the point that there is a clear seperation between him and the rest of your life. He didn't say that you couldn't have other priorities, like a wife, a career, a dream, but that in having them you place him at the top of the list always. This is the right perspective. An example of what God considers a proper perspective could be arranged in a list like this: Priorities: 1. Relationship with God 2. Blank space 3. Blank space-to establish a clear seperation of God in the top spot always 4. Family and their support 5. Fill in with things like ministry, your job, etc. according to your life. For the rich young man, the order was like this: 1. Money 2. blank 3. blank 4. God and this is the wrong type of perspective and priority system. It also says in the bible that "... the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil", not the having of the money itself. The problem doesn't come about because we have money, but it comes about when the money "has us"; i.e. our love for having and keeping the possesion reaches the point where we ignore God or put him in a lower place of priority. Money in and of itself is just a unit of exchange, a tool that we can use for the kingdom and to handle our daily affairs. Money isn't evil any more than a hammer in your toolbox is evil; people and their desires can be evil and this is where we have to be careful. Having wealth can be a great thing considering all those who are in great need and poverty around us. It can be used for great good or for great evil depending on the heart of the person with it. To use it properly, we have to have the same attitude that Job had about his money which was that God gave it to him and could take it away. He places his relationship with God above all his possesions, and the possibility of losing that relationship was what really caused him the most anxiety. Money is just a tool. It is not to be an idol in our lives though, where we put our trust in its power to do what God has already promised he would do. It's hard for the rich to be saved not because they have money, but because they are likely to trust it more than God and not commit to him like this young man did. Jesus saw that the young man was unable to commit totally to God, while he placed such a high priority on the power of his riches and brought him to a place where he had to choose between God and the money; he choose the money and walked off sadly. God wants us to choose him first so that we can walk with him in joy, trusting in his ample abililty to provide for our needs and desires. I hope that this was helpful. God bless! -scott deering sdeering@athena.mit.edu "Be strong and courageous, for the Lord you God will be with you wherever you go." Joshua 1:9
lins@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Lindsay Gower) (09/20/90)
iatterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Alan T. Terlep) writes: >college at Oakland University. I'm about to be confirmed as a Catholic after > Second, I will say that the coldly logical part of my brain is still >surprised about my confirmation. My decision to get confirmed was the first of >several decisions I've made based wholly on nonrationality. One day I woke up >and knew that I should get confirmed. It was, to say the least, unusual, >although I have had other similar experiences since. > The problem is that I feel distanced from the standard experiences that I >hear about from most religious people. I don't agree with many of the >principles of the Catholic Church, but nonetheless I feel drawn to it by God-- > I advise you to wait on your confirmation. My experience was similar; my mom was a luke-warm Catholic, my dad had no faith. I became a Christian in college, and in my mid-20's joined the Episcopal church. But whenever the time came for Confirmation as an Episcopalian (reception, really, as the Episcopal church recognized my RC confirmation) I always hesitated. Something made me resist. One year it was because the confirmation service was the same day as my mom's birthday and I knew it was painful enough to her that I has left the RC church! But I was a content member of my parish, growing in my faith, baptised and regularly recieving communion, learning from my Christian friends. In one sense, I didn't *need* to be confirmed. Then, of course, came the time when I did want it, very much. I enjoyed the classes, the talks with other confirmands, the ceremony, my friends being there with me: the firm, happy knowledge that I was standing up and saying I am the Lord's. That was my experience; others' might have known different. By I would recommend that you wait. Confirmation is a sacrament celebrating one's ADULT commitment to faith. Regardless of one's years, you can still be a babe in faith at 17, or 35, or 70. Grow a bit first, continue in the "grade school" of your walk with the Lord before you try to "graduate." With love and prayers, Lindsay Gower UniSoft Corp lins@unisoft.comm
oracle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Brian T. Coughlin) (09/25/90)
Re: Lindsay Gower, Alan T. Terlep In article <Sep.20.03.44.39.1990.19507@athos.rutgers.edu> unisoft!lins@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Lindsay Gower) writes, in response to a posting by Alan T. Terlep: (Alan) >> Second, I will say that the coldly logical part of my brain is still >>surprised about my confirmation. My decision to get confirmed was the first of >>several decisions I've made based wholly on nonrationality. One day I woke up >>and knew that I should get confirmed. It was, to say the least, unusual, >>although I have had other similar experiences since. >> The problem is that I feel distanced from the standard experiences that I >>hear about from most religious people. I don't agree with many of the >>principles of the Catholic Church, but nonetheless I feel drawn to it by God-- Hi, Alan! First of all, I want to reassure you that it's certainly normal (and, in my opinion, healthy) to question the beliefs of the Catholic Church, and (going out on a limb, here...) even to disagree with some of those beliefs, from time to time. I'm a firmly rooted Roman Catholic, and I'm going into a Catholic seminary soon, to boot... and I still have disagreements with the Vatican's policies and such. That's certainly no deficiency, and it isn't a symptom of weak faith; it shows that you have a working mind! :) (I'll qualify those statements in a minute.) (Lindsay writes:) >I advise you to wait on your confirmation. That might be a good idea... but only you (Alan) can ultimately decide that. Confirmation, while CERTAINLY not the last step in your Christian life (and certainly not the BIGGEST), is quite important. When you agree to be confirmed, you are making a promise... not to the Church, not to the world, but to God. It's a promise of, "I promise to be faithful to the very best of my ability." Confirmation naturally requires a fairly thorough knowledge of your own religion and what it has to offer. This is where the idea of "disagreement with the Church" comes in, as I mentioned a moment ago. In pre-confirmation years, one's faith is still finding its roots; in these years, it is rare to experience personal fortitude (willingness to persevere in faith despite problems, disagreements, et cet.) But there is where the true meaning of Confirmation comes in; far, far from being just the chrism-anointing ceremony, confirmation would be happening INSIDE YOU. The bishop, the priests, the church and building... all of these are just window dressing, in the end. Confirmation is your own, private decision, just between God and you, to swear the vows that your godparents swore at your baptism in your stead. So I might agree with Lindsay's recommendation to wait on confirmation... not to wait forever, and certainly not to wait longer than you're comfortable with. I'd just urge you to wait until you accept the deep, private meaning of your confirmation of your faith to God. If that happens tomorrow morning, I'll say, "More power to you, and have a happy Church service!" :) -- Take care! Sincerely, Brian Coughlin oracle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu