watson@uunet.uu.net (Steve Watson) (09/20/90)
Excerpted from recent postings on talk.relegion.misc & soc.religion.christian: In article <1990Sep13.143545.18782@swbatl.sbc.com> kamphau@oktext.UUCP (Mark Kamphaus) writes: >Postmillenium is not a total christian concept. It was originated >by a unitarian minister reconciling different beliefs. ................... >If you want to look at the timing of the >new age movement and the postmillenial revival, then you can draw your >own conclusions. and: >From: ccicpg!cci632!dls@uunet.uu.net (Darren Swartzendruber) ..... >I, too, did not feel led to pray in agreement for a peaceful solution in >the Middle East with the "New Agers", not because of who I'd be in company >with, but because we should be praying for God's will to be done. As part >of any prayer that I pray that His will be done, I also pray that He prepares >me to accept His will, because lets face it, we may not like it. ..deletions... >current Middle East events all point to the Lord coming soon! The above postings exemplify some of the reasons I no longer belong to a fundamentalist church. 1) The quoted part of the Kamphaus posting is pure inuendo: why can Christians never just *disagree* with each other? Why must they always insinuate that the opposing viewpoint is part of some satanic plot? I now belong to a mainline liberal church (United Church of Canada). I don't always agree with what goes on there, but I find it much more pleasant that people don't have this whole doctrinal agenda which one is expected to accept lock, stock & barrel, or there's something wrong with one's faith. ( :-) I would make a lousy Roman Catholic, too. :-) ) 2) As for praying for peace in Iraq: I assume that the God who commanded "Thou shalt do no murder", who "takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked", and (especially) "...who so loved the world, etc." does not, in his perfect will, want the death and agony brought by war. He does of course, frequently ALLOW it because he allows us free will. But I object to the idea of refraining from prayer for peace because one thinks that war is part of the prophesied Armageddon/Tribulation/2nd_Coming or whatever. Interpretations of prophecy seem to vary so widely (right, Mr. Kamphaus?) that they have lost all credibility with me. I therefore find it appalling that Christians set aside what I see as fundamental ethical issues in favour of their pet scheme of prophetic interpretation. As another example, prophecy is used to justify whatever the State of Israel does (against the Palestinians for e.g.) because Israel's existence is necessary to some people's eschatology. I don't want to get into a major debate on the Palestinian question: granted the PLO are terrorists, the Palestinians aren't saints, but they ARE real people who have been conquered & displaced, and continue to be exploited and kicked around. They deserve justice. Looking at events only in terms of prophetic interpretation degrades the people of the MidEast into ciphers in an eschatological game: not people whom God loves and for whom Christ died. I believe Jesus' teaching about the 'thief in the night' indicates that we are *not* to know about his coming, or spend a lot of time combing the Bible for every verse that might let us second-guess the divine time-table (and then dis-fellowship everyone who did the same thing, but came to a different conclusion!). No, we are to make ready for the Lord by doing our duty: 'do justice, love mercy, walk humbly with your God' (Mic 6:8). Whether he comes today or in the year 3000 is his problem, not ours. IHN, -- ====================== disclaimer =============================== "Blame me, not the Company I keep..." - Steve Watson UseNet: mitel!spock!watson@uunet.uu.net
dls@uunet.uu.net (Darren Swartzendruber) (09/25/90)
>>>>> On 20 Sep 90 07:11:42 GMT, mitel!spock!watson@uunet.uu.net (Steve Watson) said: >Excerpted from recent postings on talk.relegion.misc & soc.religion.christian: >In article <1990Sep13.143545.18782@swbatl.sbc.com> kamphau@oktext.UUCP > (Mark Kamphaus) writes: >and: >>From: ccicpg!cci632!dls@uunet.uu.net (Darren Swartzendruber) (...stuff deleted...) Steve writes: > I now belong to a mainline liberal church (United >Church of Canada). I don't always agree with what goes on there, but >I find it much more pleasant that people don't have this whole doctrinal >agenda which one is expected to accept lock, stock & barrel, or there's >something wrong with one's faith. That is the problem with liberalism, you can believe only the parts that you like, discarding the parts you don't like. If I went to a church that did not "jive" with what I believe to be the truth, then I would find a new church. If you can't find a church that you believe is teaching the "truth", then don't go to church! Who says who HAVE to go to church? Pray, seek, and read after the Lord and He will give you direction and understanding. That is why I believe the church I attend is teaching the truth. >2) As for praying for peace in Iraq: I assume that the God who commanded >"Thou shalt do no murder", who "takes no pleasure in the death of the >wicked", and (especially) "...who so loved the world, etc." does not, >in his perfect will, want the death and agony brought by war. He does >of course, frequently ALLOW it because he allows us free will. Well, God has destroyed cities. David killed Goliath. Joshua and the people of Israel took Jerrico. As you said above, God allows murder because of free will, but I also believe He allows it for His purpose. > But >I object to the idea of refraining from prayer for peace because >one thinks that war is part of the prophesied Armageddon/Tribulation/2nd_Coming >or whatever. I am sorry if my posting implied that. I pray for peace in the world everyday, but I NEVER pray for God to stop His timetable of events to come so we could have peace all over the world. > Interpretations of prophecy seem to vary so widely (right, >Mr. Kamphaus?) that they have lost all credibility with me. > >I therefore find it appalling that Christians set aside what I see as >fundamental ethical issues in favour of their pet scheme of prophetic >interpretation. As another example, prophecy is used to justify whatever >the State of Israel does (against the Palestinians for e.g.) because >Israel's existence is necessary to some people's eschatology. Well, it works both ways. The government of Israel (I forget its proper name) has its sessions televised somewhat like we have C-SPAN. Recently, the Rabbi of this governmental body stood up and asked everyone to take out their Bibles. (The members all reach under their desks and retrieve their Bibles. You'd never see this in the US Congress!) The Rabbi then read and said that God has promised to protect Israel and that Israel should not worry about the Iraqi threat. Here is prophesy working for good. >Israel's existence is necessary to some people's eschatology. That is because the whole world is centered on Israel. Governments and religions. Israel is God's nation and there are many prophesies concerning Israel to be fullfilled. (...stuff deleted ...) > Looking at events only in terms of prophetic >interpretation degrades the people of the MidEast into ciphers in an >eschatological game: not people whom God loves and for whom Christ died. These people have rejected God. God doesn't have to give prophesy. His purposes would still track to His schedule. Prophesies should do the opposite (of degrading people), it should up-lift. Having a prophesy come true gives credability to the word of God. It makes me excited to see prophesy come true because it reassures me that God does as He promises. >I believe Jesus' teaching about the 'thief in the night' indicates >that we are *not* to know about his coming, or spend a lot of time >combing the Bible for every verse that might let us second-guess the >divine time-table (and then dis-fellowship everyone who did the same thing, >but came to a different conclusion!). No, we are to make ready for the Lord >by doing our duty: 'do justice, love mercy, walk humbly with your God' (Mic >6:8). Lets look at the teaching of the "thief in the night": *Matthew 24:42-44: 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. *Luke 12:36-40: 36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. 37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. 38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. 39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. 40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. *1-Thessalonians 5:1-9: 1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should over- take you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breast- plate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, *2nd Peter 3:9-14: 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. 14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be dili- gent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. *Revelation 3:2-3: 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. *Revelation 16:15-16: 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. These are all the references to "the thief in the night" in the NT. All say, in the words of Matthew (24:42}, "watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come." I am NOT saying that we are to guess/know exactly when the Lord is to come, but we need to be ready and keep a watchful eye, OR the Lord will come as a thief in the night. > Whether he comes today or in the year 3000 is his problem, not ours. Actually, it is our problem. It is another day we are not in the presence of the Lord! > IHN, >====================== disclaimer =============================== >"Blame me, not the Company I keep..." - Steve Watson >UseNet: mitel!spock!watson@uunet.uu.net God Bless, Darren Swartzendruber N2KTJ dls@cci632.UUCP
mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) (09/26/90)
In article <Sep.20.03.11.41.1990.19334@athos.rutgers.edu> mitel!spock!watson@uunet.uu.net (Steve Watson) writes: > I now belong to a mainline liberal church (United >Church of Canada). I don't always agree with what goes on there, but >I find it much more pleasant that people don't have this whole doctrinal >agenda which one is expected to accept lock, stock & barrel, or there's >something wrong with one's faith. ( :-) I would make a lousy Roman >Catholic, too. :-) ) > Smilies noted, but I think the RC Church is far more flexible than you and many other non-RCs imagine. As a Roman Catholic, I have never felt forced to believe in anything. In a lot of cases though, Catholic teaching which I have found difficult has in time come to make sense. My own views differ a lot from Joe Buehler's, who I am sure would admit himself that he is a somewhat conservative Catholic, but I am quite happy to share a Church with him (I hope he is happy to share one with me :-) ). Matthew Huntbach