randall@sidd.sandiego.ncr.com (08/20/90)
Charles, I am posting to you, to get this off my mind...
Has this happened to anyone lately? I am a 39 year old man, just starting
to date now, as I have "kept myself pure" for that special person. Actually
I am finding out that most normal people have already married, settled down
and are raising children.
Basically, I am wrestling with thoughts that I have spent all those 18-21
years for nothing; thoughts that all that's left out there are psychological
misfits; thoughts of anger with legalistic authority that closets people away
from developing normal social relationships, under the guise of "holiness
and purity". I feel cheated and deceived, thinking that I was doing the right
thing by praying for hours on end, living a very chaste and pure life, giving
tithes and offerings, attending church morning, noon, and night. Like Paul,
I could say that I came from the strictest sect of the Pharisees, and did
everything right by the Book.
But having had a very bad anxiety attack a month ago, watching my brother's
children date now, and having no person at all in my life, despite the fact
that I was a worship team member in a small church, have lots of married
couples as friends, well liked by the pastors, prayed literally hours on
end to meet that special person, etc, etc, I feel that I have been led down
the primrose path into monastic monkhood and celibalistic stupidity.
Can anyone help me overcome my feelings of anger towards do-gooder Christians
who are only too eager to spew advice at a moments notice and closet people
for 15-20 years with bad teaching? (I can supply names of such who were
adversely affected) I find my trust of Christian authorities to be diminishing.
Why should I respect someone whose advice screws up my life? They don't seem
to want to take responsibility afterwords for their effects of their words.
Anyone care to make some comments or offer non-Jobian advice? Care to help
me overcome my anger which could become resentment and bitterness? Please
don't give me that crap about "godliness with contentment", please be real!
Thanks, for letting me get out my inner feelings. Help me not feel cheated,
deceived, duped, and used. Thanks, again.
- Randall (who's beginning to know why the
world isn't impressed by Christians)
btw: I have prayed to my heavenly Father, and he knows my feelings.
--
NCR E & M - San Diego | INTERNET - Randall.Rathbun@SanDiego.NCR.COM
16550 W Bernardo Drive | UUCP - {backbone}!ncr-sd!thor!randall
San Diego, CA 92127 | TELE # - (USA) (619) 485-3620 or 2358walsh@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com (08/24/90)
In article <Aug.19.22.20.08.1990.16326@athos.rutgers.edu>, randall@sidd.sandiego.ncr.com writes: > > Has this happened to anyone lately? I am a 39 year old man, just starting > to date now, as I have "kept myself pure" for that special person. Actually > I am finding out that most normal people have already married, settled down > and are raising children. > Thankyou very much for posting this. Religion passes or fails muster because of the effects it has on us, and for you to share your own experiances is really illuminating. > Basically, I am wrestling with thoughts that I have spent all those 18-21 > years for nothing; thoughts that all that's left out there are psychological > misfits; A lot of what was originally there 18-21 years ago were psychol. misfits too, but i guess where you are going to lose out is that people your age are settled into their "misfitness", so you won't get a chance to grow with anyone while you're both still young and maleable - but even so there are very sweet and good people who are middle-aged. It's just harder to fit comfortably into their lives. Of course, you can always go after a younger partner, but in age-obsessed America that's very hard. > thoughts of anger with legalistic authority that closets people away > from developing normal social relationships, under the guise of "holiness > and purity". I feel cheated and deceived, thinking that I was doing the right > thing by praying for hours on end, living a very chaste and pure life, giving > tithes and offerings, attending church morning, noon, and night. Like Paul, > I could say that I came from the strictest sect of the Pharisees, and did > everything right by the Book. Well, this is a bitter pill, but maybe you were cheated and deceived to some extent (aren't we all?) I think the main question here is: If true religion is a means to bring you closer to God - what happened? What kind of prayer left you lonely and dry after all those years? Maybe you can correct it. Would it be judgemental to assume that it didn't fill you with love, but with self-righteousness? How come your gurus didn't catch this and correct it? How come YOU didn't? (don't mean to critisize - just to point to some basic mental attitudes that might be making you unhappy.) > > But having had a very bad anxiety attack a month ago, watching my brother's > children date now, and having no person at all in my life, despite the fact > that I was a worship team member in a small church, have lots of married > couples as friends, well liked by the pastors, prayed literally hours on > end to meet that special person, etc, etc, I feel that I have been led down > the primrose path into monastic monkhood and celibalistic stupidity. Sure, celibacy is stupid if it's involutary. Worse, your prayer went nowhere. People always mouth like robots quotes like: "Ask and you shall receive" but in the real world it's just not that easy. Distrust easy cliche's - even if they're yanked out of the bible. > > Can anyone help me overcome my feelings of anger towards do-gooder Christians > who are only too eager to spew advice at a moments notice and closet people > for 15-20 years with bad teaching? (I can supply names of such who were > adversely affected) I find my trust of Christian authorities to be diminishing. > Why should I respect someone whose advice screws up my life? They don't seem > to want to take responsibility afterwords for their effects of their words. > My problem with contemporary "Christianity" (I don't think it really is) is that it's a religion of the mouth rather than of the heart. Very shallow and wordy. Exoteric rather than esoteric. I learned quick after an Assm. of God preacher robbed me of mucho money. Your trust *should* be diminished - some of them are phonies. This is part of religion - it attracts shallow (and some very sick) people like sh*t attracts flies. That's the nature of the beast. Sorry you were into it too deeply to figure it out. "Responsibility for their words"? That's too much to ask, my friend - all you got to worry about is taking responsibility for your own life, and applying scientific method to religion - if it's not working chuck your hypothesis and start fresh. > Anyone care to make some comments or offer non-Jobian advice? Care to help > me overcome my anger which could become resentment and bitterness? Please > don't give me that crap about "godliness with contentment", please be real! > Hose the bullsh*t off your boots. Grab a six_pack and head for the beach. Not much you can do now. Try to find a true path to God. Open up, read books you would have considered "heretical" and "demonic" a few months ago. Don't dwell on bad feelings. Those who you say duped you are duped themselves. All this might be flat beer, but what can we say? > Thanks, for letting me get out my inner feelings. Help me not feel cheated, > deceived, duped, and used. Thanks, again. > > - Randall (who's beginning to know why the > world isn't impressed by Christians) > Thanks for letting us know how you feel. To learn late is better than learning even later. ando. (i'm not impressed - but then i don't call them christians)
nxh@cis.ohio-state.edu (Nobuya Higashiyama) (08/24/90)
I don't mean to be inflammatory in any way in this posting: my apologies in advance for possible offense. In article <Aug.19.22.20.08.1990.16326@athos.rutgers.edu> randall@sidd.sandiego.ncr.com writes: >Has this happened to anyone lately? I am a 39 year old man, just starting >to date now, as I have "kept myself pure" for that special person. Actually >I am finding out that most normal people have already married, settled down >and are raising children. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "keeping yourself pure". I'm getting the feeling that you haven't dated people because you've been waiting for that special someone to "drop into your life". I also sense that you've been taught that it's wrong to date around. Dating does not constitute a compromise of one's purity (unless you're talking about sexual involvement). If you've been taught that by dating you're compromising your purity, they you've been taught wrong. Dating is a process where you get to know people of the other sex. Without dating, how can you know if a particular person is that "special person" you're looking for? >Basically, I am wrestling with thoughts that I have spent all those 18-21 >years for nothing; thoughts that all that's left out there are psychological >misfits; thoughts of anger with legalistic authority that closets people away >from developing normal social relationships, under the guise of "holiness >and purity". I feel cheated and deceived, thinking that I was doing the right >thing by praying for hours on end, living a very chaste and pure life, giving >tithes and offerings, attending church morning, noon, and night. Like Paul, >I could say that I came from the strictest sect of the Pharisees, and did >everything right by the Book. > >But having had a very bad anxiety attack a month ago, watching my brother's >children date now, and having no person at all in my life, despite the fact >that I was a worship team member in a small church, have lots of married >couples as friends, well liked by the pastors, prayed literally hours on >end to meet that special person, etc, etc, I feel that I have been led down >the primrose path into monastic monkhood and celibalistic stupidity. The sense I'm getting from your posting is "I've done this and that for the Lord, but look how it's turned out". Perhaps I detect a little bit of bitterness stemming from your perception that God hasn't kept his end of the bargain. All good things come from God, and we don't deserve any of it. God, in His infinite grace, gave us our lives, our jobs, material things, etc. Yet in this day and age, we're brainwashed by the world into thinking that we "deserve" life of peace and prosperity, and when there are difficult times, we're being short- changed by God. There is no place for "rights" and "bargaining" in the kingdom of God. It's only by His grace that we're even alive. If it's true that you've been taught wrong, then your teachers will have to answer to God for their actions. You are probably right in feeling indignant about the wrong teachings. On the other hand, though, you probably shouldn't blame God for what happened. Also, let me say that you have been doing the right thing by praying, living a pure life, giving offerings, and attending church regularly. However if you were doing all of the above for the wrong motive (i.e. to "get the girl"), then perhaps God may not have been pleased with it all. I speak from experience here. There was a particular young lady I was interested in, and I did all of the above to "convince" the Lord into working things out for me. In the end it didn't work out, and the Lord used this painful experience to teach me that my motives for "Christian service" must be right, i.e. the motive must be to serve and please God, not so that I can coax God into giving me things I wanted. >Can anyone help me overcome my feelings of anger towards do-gooder Christians >who are only too eager to spew advice at a moments notice and closet people >for 15-20 years with bad teaching? (I can supply names of such who were >adversely affected) I find my trust of Christian authorities to be diminishing. >Why should I respect someone whose advice screws up my life? They don't seem >to want to take responsibility afterwords for their effects of their words. If these Christian authorities have been teaching you wrong, then I can't blame you for your anger. There's nothing worse than wrong teachings, and indeed the Word is clear that teachers will be held more accountable because of the impact they have on people's lives. I'm sorry that you've been subject to wrong teachings. Indeed there's plenty of bad teachings these days. If anything, I think that should encourage us to study the Word for ourselves to see if what our teachers are saying is indeed so. Only the Word is the final authority. I think it's good that your trust in Christian authorities are diminishing. Cases like the Bakkers and Swagger are enough to show that Christian authorities are still human beings, prone to sins and errors. Your trust should rest only upon the Word, not on teachings of men. Perhaps this experience will drive you into studying the Word on your own more carefully, definitely a Good Thing. I sense a little bit of despair, but don't lose hope! The last thing you want to do at this point is to get involved in a reckless relationship with a woman who has no regard for God. I think it's good that you've started to date; I'd just suggest that you keep your eyes open, to make sure that you're dating only women who are dedicated to serving God, and who's interested in upholding His standards. And 39 is not too old -- I have a friend who recently married at the age of 35; it took him this long to find the "special person". I'm 28 now, and I haven't found that "special person" yet (I may be close :-)), but I'm glad that I haven't compromised myself, and in the end, I believe that God will be faithful. Not because I've done this and that, but because He promises it simply out of His inifinite grace (Psalm 84:11, if my memory serves correctly). Higgy -- Nobuya "Higgy" Higashiyama | ____/| Data Integrity Systems | \ o.O| Vote for Bill in '92! Mead Data Central, Dayton, OH | =(_)= mead!nxh@uccba.uc.edu (or) ...!uccba!mead!nxh | U ACK! THPHTH!
sre@cs.rochester.edu (Sherry Ellington) (08/25/90)
In article <Aug.19.22.20.08.1990.16326@athos.rutgers.edu> randall@sidd.sandiego.ncr.com writes: > >Thanks, for letting me get out my inner feelings. Help me not feel cheated, >deceived, duped, and used. Thanks, again. > >- Randall (who's beginning to know why the > world isn't impressed by Christians) > I was so touched by your posting. Mainly because I've been struggling myself with Christians who have been judgemental and hurtful to me. The thing that has helped me is doing just what you're doing. Cry out. In the process, I've found other believers who are extending the hand of love without all that gobblygook. What I mean by gobblygook is someone who quotes scriptures when you're hurting but never addresses your pain. I believe we're all made up of three elements: the physical, emotional, and spiritual. When we're having problems in one of those areas we can't resolve it without addressing the other two. God made us that way. It doesn't show a lack of faith to hollar "help". Or to admit we struggle. We all need to be more real. I think it's great the way you've been so up front with where you're at right now. I found one person here on the net that has taken the time to minister to me just through prayers and keeping in touch. He's never been judgemental or critical which has given me a taste of that "Agape" love that can only come from "Christ". And that is what's kept me focused on the fact that it's man which hurts one another. I can't blame God for human frailities. I may not be very trusting of organized religion right now or people who profess to be faithful but I have come to realize that our heavenly father is faithful. I'll be sure to keep you in my prayers. God Bless, Sherry Ellington
roderic@vicom.com (08/25/90)
Randall writes: > Basically, I am wrestling with thoughts that I have spent all those 18-21 > years for nothing; thoughts that all that's left out there are psychological > misfits; thoughts of anger with legalistic authority that closets people away > from developing normal social relationships, under the guise of "holiness > and purity". . . . > > Can anyone help me overcome my feelings of anger towards do-gooder Christians > who are only too eager to spew advice at a moments notice and closet people > for 15-20 years with bad teaching? . . . > > Anyone care to make some comments or offer non-Jobian advice? Care to help > me overcome my anger which could become resentment and bitterness? Please > don't give me that crap about "godliness with contentment", please be real! I think one of the most helpful things I've been taught is that thoughts do not matter, beliefs do. If it is your honest considered opinion that single women over 35 are not (so far as you know) uniformly "psychological misfits", then it doesn't matter if you sometimes have spontaneous thoughts arise in your head that you know aren't true. They may be very unpleasant, even painful, but they do not fundamentally matter. Because if you do not really believe in them, you won't act on them, and it is our actions that finally really matter. If you're worried that these thoughts may lead to unrealistic beliefs (which is something that does matter), then spend some more time inquiring into the truth as dispassionately as you can. Explore what you know and don't know long enough to feel some confidence, and then it doesn't matter so much what thoughts come up, even if they are painful and unpleasant. I feel something similar with regards to anger. So long as anger doesn't lead to behavior we later regret, it doesn't fundamentally matter. Again what really matters are our actions. Truthfully, I don't think there's much we can do about unpleasant feelings that arise spontaneously, at least in the short term; noone I know is able to feel pleasant and loving through an act of will. Indeed, I don't think such a condition is desirable. But people are generally unclear about their intentions, so feelings easily push them into performing actions they regret when the bad feelings pass. Still I think the principal is the same; to inquire dispassionately, honestly, and sincerely into our own desires and intentions; not our trivial whims or imaginations, but into what we fundamentally honestly want. If we can become clear about that, and remember it, remembering it is what we want and not something externally imposed upon us, then we will not act shamefully when emotions threaten to overturn us. Since I have been taught these principals (within the last year), I've developed a healthy disinterest in my thoughts and feelings. Hence I'm freer from them, and more at peace. And my attention, concern, and energy has been placed more upon the truth, which is what I believe to be important. So if you agree with me that that actions are more important than thoughts and feelings, then perhaps you will find some of this useful. But I offer no guarantees. I don't want to get blamed if something goes wrong :-). And I don't think I've said what needs to be said about becoming free of long-term bitterness. Still, you never know; it may turn out not to be a problem after all. Noone knows the future. I hope things work out well for you. --Roderic T P.S. Two other points. It might help to recall that neither you nor noone else knows for certain what would have happened if you had acted other than you did. It is, for example, possible that you might have dated, yet never married, or that you might have married, but never been satisfied in the way you suppose. At any rate, imagining we know more than we do can sometimes be very painful. And it might help to consider, if you can do so without condemning yourself, that you also bear some of the responsibility for the decisions and actions you have freely made.
credmond@watmath.waterloo.edu (Chris Redmond) (08/25/90)
In his original posting under this heading, Randall spoke of his anger at Christian advisers who somehow persuaded him to wait many years -- I believe he said he's now 39 -- before taking serious action towards meeting "that special person" for his love life. He is angry, both at wasting twenty years and at the callousness of the teachers who advised him inappropriately (and, he says, are nowhere around now to take responsibility for what they did). The anger at that bad advice may be peculiar to Randall's case, but the other anger is something he shares with many, many Christians. We are the ones whose love lives or marriages collapsed after five, ten, fifteen or twenty years, and here we are at age 40 starting to date and try to love all over again. (Me, for example.) Of course there are constructive and destructive ways of dealing with such anger; there are constructive and destructive ways of reassessing one's life and approaching the apposite sex as one begins dating again. I would like to think that the one I've currently found is "constructive", but time will tell. Randall may find a good deal of support, good advice, and (in the non-romantic sense) love if he seeks out the company of people who are newly single, and reads some of the material written for such people. He might even conclude, as I'm trying to, that the lost time wasn't "wasted" -- just invested in something that's now gone bust. CAR credmond@watmath
johnb@gatech.edu (John Baldwin) (08/30/90)
In article <Aug.24.04.18.22.1990.29630@athos.rutgers.edu> mead!mead!nxh@cis.ohio-state.edu (Nobuya Higashiyama) writes: >I don't mean to be inflammatory in any way in this posting: my apologies in >advance for possible offense. > >In article <Aug.19.22.20.08.1990.16326@athos.rutgers.edu> randall@sidd.sandiego.ncr.com writes: >>Has this happened to anyone lately? I am a 39 year old man, just starting >>to date now, as I have "kept myself pure" for that special person. Actually >>I am finding out that most normal people have already married, settled down >>and are raising children. May I join with "Higgy" Higashiyama in encouraging you? I can certainly identify with your anger and other feelings. I have been there myself, in very similar circumstances... with the exception that I am about 10 years younger than you. Please don't write me off on that account; perhaps what is lost in scale is made up for in intensity. First of all, although it isn't just simply "okay" for us to be angry at God, I am unshakably certain that He isn't intimidated or threatened by our anger, and would rather we be honest with Him about our feelings than to try to hide them. Have you brought it up and talked to Him about it? [I'm certain I've committed worse sins than being angry at God... and He's forgiven every one of those just as soon as I admitted my wrong and asked...] I can also understand if you've been taught errors (I don't *know* what you have or haven't been taught), and are angry about that. Anger against teaching in error is, IMO, entirely appropriate: "Be Angry, yet let not the Sun go down on your anger..." [oops... somebody PUHlease supply the reference!] Please remember something, and I think its a key "something:" if we truly "belong to Jesus," then we LITERALLY *belong* to Jesus! Lock, stock, and barrel. It was so hard for me to understand that, and for so many years. God can do whatever He wants with me, EVEN if I have a different opinion. There's nothing that prevents my next breath from being my last... ...except God's providential love and grace. He didn't guarantee me a wife, or even friends, or even Earthly happiness. What he DID guarantee me was eternity with Him, the joy of serving Him (real service brings real joy --- and how often do I have to relearn that one fact???), and that He would never let me be snatched from His grasp. It wasn't until I understood that I was literally Jesus' property that I was able to deal with "the marriage question." God has some of us chosen to serve Him as a single, some of us as married couples without children, and some of us in families with children. Only when I was able to say "God, if you want me single, I'll stay single... but I'm *awfully* lonesome," did He bring me into a relationship with a young woman. Something else to consider: MY timing was certainly NOT His timing! I was in the Navy at the time, attached to a submarine right in the middle of a major shipyard overhaul, and going back to sea just as soon as it was finished. And my idea of a spouse wasn't the same as God's idea: I had in mind a tall, leggy girl about 6-18 months my junior, interested in science and engineering and science fiction; good with numbers, etc. etc. etc. God's idea (my wife): shorter, curvy, 3.5 years my senior, little interest in science or math or engineering, no interest *at all* in science fiction, a special-education teacher *very* concerned with "people" problems, who gives herself to her mentally and physically handicapped students in a way I never could. The only part I (should have been) able to predict: she loves Jesus as much or more than I do... and I guarantee that whoever might turn out to be your "special someone" will match *THAT* description totally, or you can be sure she isn't God's choice for you; if it's God at work, He will only bring someone who will help bring you closer to Him, not farther away. Please pardon my use of net bandwidth for the following diagram, but I consider it vitally useful.... If God allows one of His people to enter a marriage relationship, it always ends up in the following form: GOD / \ / \ / \ / \ man ------- woman The diagram doesn't show this perfectly, but the relationships are as follows. If the man's attention is on the woman and not on God, he moves in her direction. If she's closer to God than he is, he will move *marginally* closer to God, too. If she's farther away, he moves away too. Remembering that there is no neutrality with God, something eventually will happen. If however, both the man and woman have their *primary* attention fixed on their individual relationships with God, then His Holy Spirit living within them tends to make the triangle equilateral, and while each is getting closer to God, they are *also* both getting closer to each other. While this illustration doesn't appear in the Scriptures, I believe it is a fairly accurate description of what goes on between an man and a woman and the Almighty. And I am sure that God wants my (yours, everybody's) attention fixed on Him, since He's the only one who can meet all our needs. Not a spouse. Not an earthly best-friend. Nor a really neat, really active church. Just Him. Please email me if you want to talk more. I hope my diatribe was helpful, rather than hurtful. -- John T. Baldwin | johnb%srchtec.uucp@mathcs.emory.edu Search Technology, Inc. | | "... I had an infinite loop, My opinions; not my employers'. | but it was only for a little while..." [Actually I think the message of Job is that it is OK for us to be angry at God. He can deal with our anger. --clh]
lrb@hpfcso.hp.com (Larry Bruns) (09/02/90)
Randall - 2 quotes from your posting stood out to me: > thoughts that all that's left out there are psychological misfits; and: > despite the fact that I was a worship team member in a small church, ^^^^^ I waited until age 27 for my first date, although the biggest reason for waiting that long was different than yours: my main reason was my own extremely low self-esteem. (BTW: For this same reason I also waited until age 21 to get a driver's license!) My social life during the years before age 27 consisted solely of my *small* church and the local university hiking club. But these two groups seemed to have nothing in common. There were lots of young singles in the latter group, but as far as I could tell, none were Christians (probably some were, but I would have been too embarrassed to fish this info out). My church was full of warm, loving people, many of whom had become my close friends (and had helped me come out of my loner's shell), but none of them were young singles like myself. They were mostly married couples of my age or older. This may really sound stupid, but I thought that I was *unique* in being a single Christian at my age. I thought that by not dating in high school and college, I had somehow missed my chance in life to meet some wonderful woman and get married. The single biggest change in my social life happened when my father (who was a pastor at another church in a nearby city) became an associate pastor in a very large church in my city. This church had a very active single's group (I had never been to *any* kind of single's group before), and he kept pestering me to try it out. I still vividly remember the first time I went to their Friday night meeting - I looked around in absolute AWE at a room full of 40 or 50 people - all of them Christians, all of them single, and mostly in the age range of early 20's to mid-40's. Incredible! I'm not the *only* one! I eventually became very active in this group. Since most of the friends I made there also were members of that church, I eventually wound up switching to that church. But that took a few years to happen, as I was still very loyal to my small church, being in the choir, on numerous committees (even chairman of some), etc. I eventually found it too hard to be *very* involved with 2 churches at once. I don't want to knock small churches, but because of my experience, I came to conclude that they are *NOT* a good place for a young single to be in, at least not if that person is centering their social life there. (They are a *great* place for families, since the bulk of their membership tends to be families.) I notice you are posting from San Diego. Good! You don't live in a small town. Get out and visit the singles groups in some larger churches. I say this for a variety of reasons: 1) You asked about how to deal w/ anger. The best way is to meet other Christians who have gone or are currently going through anger, and the best place to find that is in a single's group. People who are divorced have usually gone through a lot of anger at God for unanswered prayers. People who have been wanting to get married for years have likewise had to deal w/ anger that their prayers for "that special someone" are unanswered. 2) As for your thoughts about the "misfits" out there, are you sure that your *bigger* fear might not really be that *you* are the misfit? No offense intended here. It's just that that is exactly what I feared about myself before I found out that there were lots of other "misfits" like me (in the Christian single's group), which caused me to re-define the word. I think you would feel much better to find that there are others like you. 3) You imply that you want to get married and settle down. Your chances of meeting the person you want are greater in a large singles group. You will find all kinds of people there. A very few are there *just* to date - they date *everyone* that interests them, then drop out for a year, then pop in again next year to see who is new, and re-start the cycle. Others are not interested in dating at all, and go only for the fun and friendship of other people like themselves. But I think most of them were like myself: primarily there for the fellowship, with meeting that "special person" as a secondary objective. In a large group you will find a good mixture of many types: divorced with kids, divorced without kids, never married, never dated, all ages. One thing that most of them have in common though is that their singleness makes them feel like misfits in society at large and in the church at large. So they feel very much at home in a group of other "misfits". The bonding to other members of the group or to the group as a whole can be very strong. Another thought about the "misfits" out there: There is a natural fear that any 39 year-old single women are all going to be misfits. This follows from the thought that "if they have been dating for 18-21 years and are still not married, something must be awfully wrong with them". There may be some women of whom that is true. But some may have been in the exact same situation as you. Or others may have been so involved with their brother's and sister's families and so shy of strangers that they never made any attempt to meet others, but are just now forcing themself to do that as they realize they are approaching 40. Others may have been too involved in their jobs, or taking care of a sick parent, etc., etc., and are just now emerging from social isolation. Others were in a marriage that was just ripped apart last year due mostly to their ex-husband's midlife crisis. Some may have been dating a non-Christian whom they deeply loved for the last 7 years, praying constantly that they would become a Christian, and unwilling to marry them until that happened. I have known women and/or men in all of these categories, and in each category will be found wonderful women who have faults and virtues (just like any other human being), but do *not* have any serious psychological problems. Hope I have been of some help. Larry Bruns PS - Randall - Re: getting into dating for the first time at a late age: I had many amusing experiences that were due to my being a neophyte who was dating women who had been dating for years. (Amusing in retrospect, now that I know what all those unwritten rules were; but heartbreaking at the time when I had no idea of what was really going on.) Send e-mail if you're interested in hearing - it's starting to get away from the topic of this group.
jars%coast@ucsd.edu (Juan A. Rodriguez-Sero) (09/02/90)
I would add that worrying about what you might have done cannot give you any benefit; rather, (I at least) try to worry about what you can do from now on. And think that success does not mean never doing anything wrong; the only people who never do anything wrong never do anything, period. Success means making mistakes, seeing them for what they are, doing something to set right what is wrong, and learning in the process. I am sure we all have misled, one way or another, some of us a lit- tle, some of us a lot (and sometimes we have done it to ourselves). The best we can do afterwards is to see the difference between right ways and wrong ways, and do something to change course. We cannot choose our feelings, so we cannot be held accountable for them; we cannot choose many of our thoughts either; but in our behavior we do have a choice, and an important one. -- Juan Antonio Rodriguez-Sero|"I have committed the worst sin of all Center for Coastal Studies|that a man can commit. I have not been S. I. O. - U. C. S. D.|happy. May the glaciers of oblivion jars@coast.ucsd.edu |drag me and mercilessly let me fall"(J. L. Borges)
sacg1198@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Scott A Cattanach) (09/17/90)
jwtlai@watcgl.waterloo.edu (Jim W Lai) writes: >In article <Sep.9.01.25.08.1990.9720@athos.rutgers.edu> >charlie@lindy.stanford.edu (Charlie Channel) writes: >>In article <Sep.6.00.18.12.1990.25058@athos.rutgers.edu> >djcl@contact.uucp (woody) writes: >>>just in case i didn't get the numbers right, the unmarried M:F ratio (ages >>>20-29) should be 108:100, ie. more M than F. >> >More males are born than females, but males die more quickly, so it evens >out. Complicating this is that the majority of women tend to prefer older >men in this society. The odds aren't really that bad; better than 11:10 >if you're male. Just lower your standards and it'll be easy to find a >partner. :) :) :) I'm curious, do these numbers apply to the church as well or do they skew somewhat in either direction if the non-Christians are removed? I have no idea myself, an argument could probably be made in either direction. -- -catt (catt@uiuc.edu) I've never really trusted Smokey the Bear. Everytime I see him I wonder what happened to the Boy Scout that was orginally wearing that hat.
charlie@lindy.stanford.edu (Charlie Channel) (09/20/90)
In article <Sep.17.03.22.24.1990.17429@athos.rutgers.edu> sacg1198@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Scott A Cattanach) writes: >jwtlai@watcgl.waterloo.edu (Jim W Lai) writes: >I'm curious, do these numbers apply to the church as well or do they skew >somewhat in either direction if the non-Christians are removed? I have >no idea myself, an argument could probably be made in either direction. > -catt (catt@uiuc.edu) A related question is, Within a congregation, are there more women than men? My experience is that, generally, there are more women around -- eligible women -- than men. I am curious about what others have observed. And, for the sake of discussion, I'd like to know if anyone feels that there are more women because (1) they're more sociable and (2) they have a higher sense of spiritual need?
correll@brahms.udel.edu (Sharon J Correll) (09/23/90)
In article <Sep.17.03.22.24.1990.17429@athos.rutgers.edu> sacg1198@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Scott A Cattanach) writes: >jwtlai@watcgl.waterloo.edu (Jim W Lai) writes: > >>In article <Sep.9.01.25.08.1990.9720@athos.rutgers.edu> >>charlie@lindy.stanford.edu (Charlie Channel) writes: >>>In article <Sep.6.00.18.12.1990.25058@athos.rutgers.edu> >>djcl@contact.uucp (woody) writes: >>>>just in case i didn't get the numbers right, the unmarried M:F ratio (ages >>>>20-29) should be 108:100, ie. more M than F. >>> >I'm curious, do these numbers apply to the church as well or do they skew >somewhat in either direction if the non-Christians are removed? I have >no idea myself, an argument could probably be made in either direction. I'm no statistician, but I am SURE that there are more women in the church than men. In fact, I heard someone say recently that the most "unreached" group of people in this country are single men in their 20's and 30's. About the original writer's question, I think he has nothing to worry about. From where I sit, there are quite a few very nice, very "together" women in their 30's who would like to be married, and they don't have "psychological problems" either. The men are a different story. It seems to me that quite a few of the single men in their 30's are socially inept or immature, and lot of them are very nice and eligible but seem to have hangups about marriage and a fear of making a lifetime commitment. Those seem to be the two biggest categories. Then there are the guys that are so perfect they're not even worth looking at, because they want God to drop Miss Just-As-Perfect from the sky for them, and (I'll be less cynical here) the nice guys who just have other things going on in their lives and are too preoccupied to get into a relationship, and those that for one reason or another haven't found the right one yet. And on the mission field it's worse. I heard of a missionary center overseas that had 40 single women and 1 single man. -- ---\ Sharon Correll \--------------- ----\ University of Delaware \-------------- -----\ Academic Computing and Instructional Technology \------------- ------\ correll@sun.acs.udel.edu \------------
carroll@beaver.cs.washington.edu (Jeff Carroll) (09/27/90)
In article <Sep.20.03.25.25.1990.19367@athos.rutgers.edu> charlie@lindy.stanford.edu (Charlie Channel) writes: >A related question is, Within a congregation, are there more women >than men? My experience is that, generally, there are more women >around -- eligible women -- than men. I am curious about what others have >observed. And, for the sake of discussion, I'd like to know if anyone >feels that there are more women because (1) they're more sociable and >(2) they have a higher sense of spiritual need? It has been my experience in the churches to which I have had exposure (Methodist, Episcopal, Presbyterian) that single women tend to outnumber single men, just as married women outnumber married men. Married men often find their way onto church rolls regardless of whether they have ever attended or not, simply because their wives attend. I suppose you could say that women have, not necessarily a higher sense of spiritual need, but that more women are responsive to the church as a means of spiritual expression. (I believe that men are powerfully conditioned by society to avoid religion, in general.) My experience when I was single was that single women who came to church to socialize often were very introverted people who expected the church to constitute the entirety of their social lives; not exactly because they were "more sociable". The "more sociable" women who came to church often did so because (in my estimation) they found it a good place to meet sensitive men without diseases. Jeff Carroll carroll@atc.boeing.com