daveh@tekcrl.labs.tek.com (David Hatcher) (09/17/90)
In article <Sep.13.04.18.00.1990.24908@athos.rutgers.edu> johnw@stew.ssl.berkeley.edu (John Warren) writes: >Judgmentalism is not the point. If I do not want to pray with a non-Christian >who wants to visualize billions of line segments of lights interconnecting >across the globe (and who calls that the same thing that I'm doing when >I get in touch with God's Spirit), I am being no more judgmental than the >person who pulls out a map to find out how to get to >the airport. I rule out certain paths either because they are Judgmentalism is the point if because you are reading a map that is in English and that other person reading a map in another language that you do not understand. And because you do not understand it, you call it a map that is headed in the wrong direction. The call was for an interfaith prayer. No one is forcing you to use the map you can not read. In fact you would be better off using what you can read. That's what has prompted me to respond in the first place. Even in prayer, Christians have a very hard time finding a place in their hearts where they can pray with other of other faiths. David Hatcher
jrossi@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Joe "Bart" Rossi) (09/18/90)
In article <Sep.13.04.18.00.1990.24908@athos.rutgers.edu> johnw@stew.ssl.berkeley.edu (John Warren) writes: >As for other theists or new-agers or agnostics or deists or whatever: it >may be ironically and tragically true that they live in God's presence as >much as the average Christian does. However, the Christian who lives by >faith (i.e., faith as a working principle, not just a belief) has the >promise of the Holy Spirit, the comforter. Jesus promised that to no >one else. That, however, is not to say that no one else can receive >the Holy Spirit: I don't know, and I wouldn't rule out the possibility >of a *few* non-Christians receiving Him. But the only guarantee of >being able to be close to God, and feeling and knowing that closeness, >is by going through the narrow door, i.e., following Jesus Christ. If God loves us so much why does he make it so hard for us to come to him. Why isn't he more accessible? >I don't judge you or belittle your experience. In fact, I praise >God you have it. But my purpose is to point people to the only sure way. I would argue our purpose is to let God's Love flow through us, to let God live in us, and thus draw people to God's Love by living it. Pointing out the only sure way is tricky. Do you point to Catholic Church and its emphasis on ritual, or do you point to John Calvin? Do you point to Luther, or just to your favorite charismatic church. Do you point to the Bible, and if you do, do you point to the Apocrypha? Problem is, pointing to Christ in this context ends up a direction to a set of beliefs, and not necessarily to Christ. IMHO, of course. One of way of pointing to Christ is to live Christ i.e. 1) eat and drink with sinners 2) be forgiving 3) be loving 4) be grateful to God 5) verbally attack judgementalism and religious hypocrisy 6) be a peacemaker 7) be willing to be killed for what you believe and if you can swing a miracle or too, it might add to your credibility, but then again you may accused and/or attacked as a false prophet or anti-Christ, and if things get really hairy, you'll end up having to do #7. You'll have to get used to being called a heretic, a blashphemer and other nasty words. Incidentally, I am now of the persecuted. There is a certain police chief who thinks that my type out to be taken and shot. I don't make this statement lightly, but it is an errie feeling knowing that there are some who just as soon kill you. love, Joe -- "The affirmation of one's own life-the acceptance of one's destiny as it manifests itself in each moment-is the supreme act of faith."
gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) (10/01/90)
In article <Sep.17.03.51.14.1990.17688@athos.rutgers.edu> daveh@tekcrl.labs.tek.com (David Hatcher) writes: > > That's what has prompted me to respond in the first place. Even in > prayer, Christians have a very hard time finding a place in their > hearts where they can pray with other of other faiths. David: I don't want to keep this thread going much longer. However, something that I think must be pointed out is what prayer is for many Christians. Prayer is not merely mouthing a bunch of requests. If you read the outline for prayer that Jesus gave, which is often called the Lord's Prayer and repeated in some churches Sunday after Sunday, it starts off with praise and worship of God, our Father. This is a key issue--prayer as worship. Further, notice that we are to call God our Father. This is not common within other religions to refer to the one, true, living God as your Father. Yet, that is what Christians can do--indeed should do. "But as many as received him [Jesus], to them gave he power to become sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." (John 1:12 KJV) While you may not agree, we have no other gods before us. Further, we believe that all other gods are false. And we are forbidden to worship other gods. Thus to pray (a form of worship) in concert with those who worship other gods would not be proper for us. However, we can pray for peace. There is nothing that prohibits us for asking the Father for peace, as He wills it. But also be aware that some of us do not believe that there will be much peace in the world due to our eschatological views, but that is another discussion. Having said this, I will bow out for now. I think that this thread has been done enough for now. Any further discussion, which I'm not opposed to, can probably be carried over into email, time permitting. Because He lives, Gene Gross 2 Chronicles 7:14, 15