timh@linus.uucp (Tim Hoogasian) (09/23/90)
In article <Sep.18.03.48.11.1990.9005@athos.rutgers.edu> howard@53iss6.waterloo.nc r.com (Howard Steel) writes: > >I suppose I chose a poor analogy; try this one on for size. You are addressed >by a Christian leader who says at 1 o'clock on Friday he hopes all people >would join him in praying to God to help end the middle east crisis peacefully. >You agree with his sentiments and methods and thus take the time to pray. Would >you be offended to learn that a number of neo-pagans heard the same call to >prayer and decided to pray in their own way to their own god/gods, or perform >a ceremony to accomplish the same thing? > >My point is simply that the intention is correct and righteous by Christian >standards, so why refuse to take part because of a disagreement of method. no, i don't agree that they're the same thing. the first situation was that a non-Christian (however well-intentioned) called for people to pray together, no matter what their "religious orientation." the second situation is where Christians joined other Christians in the goal of praying to Almighty God, and non-Christians (presumably of their own volition) chose to also pray at the same time. however, both groups did not spend time time in prayer to the *same* Being. the neo-pagans can pray if they like, when and where they like, but a Christian volitionally joining them makes a mockery of his faith in Christ, since Jesus (i keep harping on this - sigh) claimed "*I* am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. NO ONE comes unto the Father but by Me." it's a subtle point - what the misguided Christian has done is to concede that the pagan's prayers have just as much weight with God as do his own, as a child of God, bought by Jesus Christ's blood. if Jesus Christ's claim is true, then persons praying to other gods are ter- ribly mistaken, and will suffer the eternal consequences of their delusion if they do not come to know and trust in Him, prior to their earthly deaths. if Jesus Christ is who He claims to be, then pursuit of any other path is indeed a tragedy, and the Christian should not give his "seal of approval" to such an Eternal-Death-oriented activity, even when he doesn't believe it himself. the Christian doing this is partly culpable for those persons' blood, because he at very least just stood by and did nothing, and possibly encouraged such a disaster course by his "approval" (non-oppostion). an example: if i know someone is plotting to kill my neighbor, and do nothing to stop the event, then i am culpable, though perhaps the courts may not say that i must be jailed. my (non)actions in this context are worthy of contempt. it amounts to the same thing, in the spiritual sense, if i "approve", or do not oppose, such misguided (however well-intentioned) notions as those that have been seen in this group which support the idea that "it's all relative." while the Apostle Paul spent his years of ministry among the Gentiles, and debated with the Greeks, i cannot imagine him following such a "prayer call." when Paul saw the altar on Mars Hill raised to the "Unknown God", the first thing he did was to point out to the Greeks was that he'd noticed that they were quite a superstitious lot, and that the "Unknown God" was the one TRUE God, the Almighty Creator. He didn't suggest that they all pray together to their respective dieties for guidance, or whatever. it's a fine "tolerant" thing to do, to believe that we'll all meet with God, in whatever guise *we* choose, but this is unsupported by Scripture. it makes men feel better, because they can then say, "Well, so what if I didn't follow the rules..." and believe that God will allow them to justify them- selves to Him in that way. however, at Judgement Day, there will be no courtroom antics or justification by anyone to confound God's divine Judgement and sentence. Paul reminds us that the reason men don't understand isn't because God has made Himself "mysterious", but rather that they prefer to believe in their own conceits! This, however, does not change God. You can choose not to believe Truth, but that does not make Truth untrue. God has set down His Laws. we live in a world created by Him. now, as the Author of all the Universe, i'd suggest that He has the authority to lay down whatever Laws He may choose, and expect that they be abided by. (this is not to suggest that we can be justified under the Mosaic system - by the old Law - which is clearly not true, given Christ's gift to us) what i'm saying in all this is that the "intent" may be fine, but there are many many people who are deluded. if i sincerely believe that "2 + 2 = 5", you'll still tell me i'm wrong (i HOPE so, anyway!), and i *will* be wrong, no matter how very very very sincerely i believe that i am correct! why do you think God sent the Jewish nation to make war on its pagan neighbors so often, as is recounted in the Old Testament? weren't these folks also just worshiping God "in their own way"? if this were the case, then God would have to be very fickle and perverse, which is something He emphatically states is *not* true of His character: "I am the LORD - I change not." God is not bound by men's notions, no matter how much and how sincerely men wish Him to be. He has set down His Laws, and if we do not abide by what He has commanded, our eternal lives will be forfeit. it's not that God will have "unfairly" condemned us to Hell - Scripture makes it clear that God would rather that no one perish, but it's OUR choice. if we do not follow Him, then we have condemned ourselves, and God will simply be the executor of the sen- tence we have pronounced *upon ourselves*. --- Tim | ARPA: timh@ide.com Hoogasian | UUCP: sun!ide!timh (415) 543-0900 =============================================================================== #define DISCLAIMER "Are you nuts? I don't represent anyone, let alone myself!"
daveh@tekcrl.labs.tek.com (David Hatcher) (09/27/90)
In article <Sep.23.03.31.59.1990.5621@athos.rutgers.edu> timh@linus.uucp (Tim Hoogasian) writes: > However, both groups did not spend >time in prayer to the *same* Being. How do you know that *while in payer* you are not praying to the same Being? What's going on with in a person who is opening their soul while in prayer anyway? Personally, I feel that meaningful prayer comes from a place that is much deeper than what theology defines OR from what we believe. It comes from our soul. Not from our outer thoughts. So in moving past those outer thoughts and to that place where we are looking *at* the soul as it is opened to God in prayer, what is the soul really pointing towards? Is it *really* God? How do you know? Just because someone says that it is Jesus that they are pointing towards, how do you *really* know? And how is this prayer known and experienced differently than from what other spiritual paths may know or experience. And since you feel that we are not praying to the same Being, to whom AM I praying? What IS with in my heart as I open my soul to my Beloved God? David Hatcher
garyh@crash.cts.com (Gary Hipp) (10/01/90)
[Tim Hoogasian mentioned that (Christians and non-Christians, I guess -- I've lost the original context) do not pray to the same Being. David Hatcher wondered about this. He commented that prayer comes from the soul, and that one's outer thought do not necessarily indicate what the soul is open to. I think his suggestion is that everyone who opens their soul is experiencing the same God, but that wasn't clear. > And since you feel that we are not praying to the same Being, > to whom AM I praying? What IS with in my heart as I open my soul > to my Beloved God? --clh] "We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing, and does His will, He hears him."--John 9:38. The question becomes, by what other avenue other than Christ is one justified, redeamed, and saved? Gary Hipp