gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) (09/20/90)
In article <Sep.6.04.11.09.1990.26207@athos.rutgers.edu> hoyt@megatek.uucp (Hoyt Stearns) writes: >Note the striking parallel between Habakkuk 1: 5 - 11 and the current Iraqui >invasion. Chaldea of biblical times seems to correspond roughly to >modern Iraq - the land of the Tigris and Euphrates. > >Although this prophecy was originally fulfilled by God sending the >Chaldeans as a rebuke to rebellious ancient Israel, this prophecy, like many >in the Old Testament, can have multiple fulfillments in the course of >history. > >If Saddam's adventure is indeed part of the Divine Plan, what does this augur >for the western world's prospects? Surely the USA stands on no high >moral ground. Interesting reading. If in fact this prophecy is to have a modern fulfillment, then it is possible that this is the start of some major movements in the history of mankind that could lead to the fulfillment of history and the coming of our great hope. We are told to watch the signs of the times, and this is certainly prudent. But I think that this is far more difficult than many realize. Often the fulfillment of prophecy is not seen until later. Many good-hearted saints have tried to interpret happenings in the world as being fulfillment of given signs, and some have even gone so far as to set dates. So I merely caution that we should keep our eyes focussed upon Him who is our Hope and Salvation while remaining aware of the seasons. As for the USA standing on high moral ground, I dare say that no nation does, not even the USA. And even more saddening is the fact that those called according to His name are often not standing on the high moral ground. Prophecy should spur the saints of God onward to more fervently pray, study, meditate, and preach and teach the Gospel. May the Lord find us busy doing His will and work when He returns for us. Not out of some notion of obligation only, but out of love for Him who first loved us while we were yet unlovable. May He grant you sufficient grace for this day, Gene Gross 2 Chronicles 7:14, 15 > >Your comments would be appreciated. > >Hoyt A. Stearns >
mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) (09/26/90)
In article <Sep.20.04.08.03.1990.19823@athos.rutgers.edu> gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) writes: >Interesting reading. If in fact this prophecy is to have a modern >fulfillment, then it is possible that this is the start of some major >movements in the history of mankind that could lead to the fulfillment >of history and the coming of our great hope. > >We are told to watch the signs of the times, and this is certainly >prudent. We are also specifically warned against trying to predict times and places. This sort of thing runs into the danger of worshipping the book and forgetting its message. Seeing parallels with current events and scriptural events is one thing, but claiming that current events are specific fulfillments of prophecy is generally dangerous nonsense. The notion of "multiple fulfillment" was presumably invented to cover up the embarrassment of those who have been too quick to claim fulfillment of prophecy. Every age seems to have those who think the run of the mill disasters and wars of the time are fulfillment of prophecy. Matthew Huntbach
alan@syacus.acus.oz (Alan Stewart) (09/26/90)
gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) writes: >In article <Sep.6.04.11.09.1990.26207@athos.rutgers.edu> hoyt@megatek.uucp (Hoyt Stearns) writes: >> >>If Saddam's adventure is indeed part of the Divine Plan, what does this augur >>for the western world's prospects? Surely the USA stands on no high >>moral ground. The devil is very clever. I believe Satan is stirring up strife in the middle east to take the attention away from his dirty work in Europe. The ten toes of Daniel's vision is forming now, and remember that the Antichrist will come from the revived Roman Empire. Alan
gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) (10/01/90)
In article <Sep.26.02.58.28.1990.1683@athos.rutgers.edu> mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) writes: >In article <Sep.20.04.08.03.1990.19823@athos.rutgers.edu> gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) writes: >>Interesting reading. If in fact this prophecy is to have a modern >>fulfillment, then it is possible that this is the start of some major >>movements in the history of mankind that could lead to the fulfillment >>of history and the coming of our great hope. >> >>We are told to watch the signs of the times, and this is certainly >>prudent. >We are also specifically warned against trying to predict times >and places. Matt, puuhleeze!! No where did I imply that we should start setting a date. I do not believe in setting dates. In fact, I'm quite content to leave the date setting to our Father. However, watching the signs of the times (or the times of the season) is not only prudent, we are told to do that. Further, Jesus and the several of the apostles give us signs so that we can judge the times. Do we ignore this? At our own peril. Seeing things grow worse should motivate us to labor the more earnestly in our Father's vineyard. We should find within the events of the day more than ample reason to share the Gospel with others through word and deed (our lifestyle). Now if this is bibliolatry, then I am guilty. But I hardly see how ministering and witnessing can be called bibliolatry. Studying prophecy is also something that is worthy. It is part of the Bible, the Word. We are told to study the Word, to desire the milk of the Word that we might grow. Do we not study parts of the Word simply because it is prophecy? Further, there are prophecies whose fulfillment cannot be said to have already happened in OT times. These include section of Ezekiel and Daniel to name just two of the OT prophetic books. I'm not sure that we can actually sit down and say that a particular event fulfills the prophecy found in Chapter and:verse (;-)). But that should not stop us from examining current events in light of what the text says. My current view of eschatology is that Christians will indeed be here for the tough times. As such, the time of birth pangs that Jesus speaks of in Matt. 24 are something that IMO we will experience. Yet, I do not believe that there will be some point where we can say, "Look, it started (or starts) on this date." Rather, I believe that things will just gradually get worse. And we will realize one day that the full weight of the great tribulation spoken of in the text is upon us--and has been. It is a lot like the coming of night. The night does not fall instantly upon us. The light from the sun slowly wans in the west. The shadows lengthen slowly engulfing objects until the night is finally here. And the dawning is the same way--slowly the sun rises in the east to dispell the dark. The signs of the times are like the signs that we have of the approach of night or morning. All we can say when we see that the sun dips below the horizon is that night is coming. Few, if any of us can state at what actual hour the night is here. But we have enough signs to know that the night is coming. And the same for dawn. (And let's not take this example too far--for it is in some areas limited.) Now, if I'm a farmer working my fields to gather the crops, do I not want to at least give some mind to the time of the day. To do this, do I look to my watch each time? Or do I instead watch the signs of the sun as it journeys across the sky? Having worked on my uncle's farm many a summer, I can tell you that we never looked at a clock while in the field. We became adept at judging the time of day by the movement and position of the sun. And when we saw it at a certain position relative to the western horizon, we knew roughly how much time before it became too dark to work. And when this sign was seen, we labored all the harder. And that is my position on watching the signs of the times. I am of the opinion that as we see the time draw closer we should labor the more. I do not believe that we will know the exact time of the coming of our Blessed Hope. But we can be sure that He will come for that is His promise to us. And God is no liar. Because He lives, Gene Gross
johnw@stew.ssl.berkeley.edu (John Warren) (10/01/90)
In article <Sep.26.02.58.28.1990.1683@athos.rutgers.edu> mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) writes: >In article <Sep.20.04.08.03.1990.19823@athos.rutgers.edu> gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) writes: >> >>We are told to watch the signs of the times, and this is certainly >>prudent. >We are also specifically warned against trying to predict times >and places. > >This sort of thing runs into the danger of worshipping the book >and forgetting its message. Seeing parallels with current >events and scriptural events is one thing, but claiming that >current events are specific fulfillments of prophecy is >generally dangerous nonsense. The notion of "multiple >fulfillment" was presumably invented to cover up the >embarrassment of those who have been too quick to claim >fulfillment of prophecy. Either people are reluctant to unsay what they've said (even when proven wrong) or some people are artistically astute enough to see the richness in the tapestry of prophetic history. You may think that the "multiple fulfillment" theory is a copout, and some people may use it as a copout, but I see it as Divine Genius. The problem with people who have said that it's the end when it's not, is that they were simply wrong. That's all there is to it. There is a way to be right, just like there is a way to do a physics problem correctly, and thousands of ways to screw up. The point is, no matter how many people get it wrong, that doesn't mean that there is no right answer. Of course, any answer will be a partial answer, because Jesus said that no one knows the day or hour. But by saying that He did not mean that we should not waste our time comparing our present age with the age of the Second Coming. He specifically said the opposite: "When you see these things begin to come to pass, lift up your heads, for your redemption is near." >Every age seems to have those who >think the run of the mill disasters and wars of the time are >fulfillment of prophecy. > Well, they were wrong. And those who sat on rooftops waiting for Jesus to take them home were sadly wrong. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, just because you're tired of people who work things out wrong. > >Matthew Huntbach
mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) (10/03/90)
In article <Sep.30.20.23.24.1990.16046@athos.rutgers.edu> gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) writes: >Seeing things grow worse should motivate us to labor the more earnestly >in our Father's vineyard. We should find within the events of the day >more than ample reason to share the Gospel with others through word and >deed (our lifestyle). Now if this is bibliolatry, then I am guilty. >But I hardly see how ministering and witnessing can be called >bibliolatry. > Fine. What I object to is the drawing of elaborate parallels while ignoring more general principles. If you want to do this, stick to Nostradamus and leave the Bible to Christians. Every age has had a fair share of people who consider their own age to be the "last days" and see the events of that age as signs from God that the World is coming to an end. The real Christian message is that we should always live as if we were to be called to judgement tomorrow. That comes through time and time again in Christ's teachings. Detailed plans for the future do not. Matthew Huntbach [I'm not sure you disagree with Gene. My comment on this is that we should be able to get something out of Rev. even if we aren't the last generation. As I see it, Rev. was written to give Christians encouragement in difficult circumstances. Its original readers certainly weren't the last generation. It helped them put their trials into the long-term cosmic perspective. Surely we should be able to benefit from this as well, whether the Last Judgement comes tomorrow or not. --clh]