davidh@tektronix.tek.com (David L Hatcher) (10/01/90)
In article <Sep.27.04.59.34.1990.15158@athos.rutgers.edu> timv@cadfx.ccad.uiowa.edu (Timothy VanFosson) writes: >In an article I posted you added this comment: >> [This continues an exchange between David Hatcher and Tim Hoogasian >> on the subject of Christ as the only way. The problem is >>> there are so many >>> from other spiritual traditions who also know and live with in >>> the Grace and Glory of God just as much an *any* Christian does. >> Both Tim and David seem to believe that there is some need for >> rethinking what it means to say that Christ is the only way. --clh] >> > >I don't believe that we need to rethink whether or not Christ is the only >way (in the sense that there may be other ways - which is what I believe >David to be saying.). It is, yet it is not what I'm saying. I'm looking towards the actual act AND experience of knowing and living with in the Grace and Glory of God. That act and experience reaches beyond beliefs. I feel that for Christians the Divine is known through Christ. I also feel that others of other religions also know the Divine. Though the cultures and languages used are different, the inner experience of actually knowing and living with in the Divine is the same. Something that keeps going around and around in my head is my wondering how I can get the Christians here to explain what they are experiencing as they reach past the historical Jesus and onward towards the more spiritual aspect of where God is know through Christ. After all, everyone here keeps saying that the only way to God is throuth Jesus Christ. Yet no one here talks much about God as if they actually know Him by personal experience. Where's the proof of all of these claims? As I understand it, ~with in~ the act of faith for Christians is the act of actually turning ones soul towards Christ. If one *really* wants to explore the realms of where faith leads one, than a person has to also learn to ~open~ their heart & soul to God which just happens to be beyond the historical things we think of when we think of the life of Jesus Christ here on earth. It's that stuff that is with in the essence of the person we call Jesus Christ that is makes Him and the Father as One that I'm trying to focus upon here. Now ~HOW~ does a person ~KNOW~ that they are in fact turning their soul to Christ. What sort of feedback tells them the yes, they have hit the true object of their worshipping. And further more, what is ~unique~ about this spiritual experience that leads many Christians to the feeling that others of other spiritual traditions do not also know and live with in the Glory of that experience. I'm looking past beliefs here and pointing towards what is being experienced as one lives with in the Grace and Glory of God. In short, when going right to the Godhead, how does one know that they have reached God through Jesus Christ? What sort of feedback or spiritual experience lets them know that they are on the right track? OK, now to bring the experience of the Divine down here to earth. Those whom have in some way actually touched God, in the spiritual sense, begin to manifest a different self. They become changed. They change in a way that reflects or mirror some aspect of the Divine that they have touched. This is when the fruit is manifested and can be seen by all. So in looking ~at~ the fruit, and ~how~ it is manifested, what aspect of the Divine that is manifested through a Christian *IS NOT* also manifested with in others of other spiritual paths? David Hatcher Question: There is a difference in the experiences of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Does the Christian experience those 3 Divine Persons in 3 distinct ways, or do they experience them all by a general awareness?
correll@brahms.udel.edu (Sharon J Correll) (10/03/90)
In article <Sep.30.21.22.50.1990.16753@athos.rutgers.edu> davidh@tektronix.tek.com (David L Hatcher) writes: > > Something that keeps going around and around in my head is my wondering > how I can get the Christians here to explain what they are experiencing > as they reach past the historical Jesus and onward towards the more > spiritual aspect of where God is know through Christ. After all, > everyone here keeps saying that the only way to God is throuth Jesus > Christ. Yet no one here talks much about God as if they actually > know Him by personal experience. Where's the proof of all of these claims? I've been thinking some about your question about personal experiences with God, and I have a couple of thoughts. First of all, there is no way for me to PROVE that I have had an experience with God. I can talk about my experiences, but a person who wanted to write it all off could do so and probably would. There is something about talking about my relationship with God in order to PROVE something that just goes against the grain. Maybe that's true for other people too, and that's why there hasn't been a lot of that sort of posting in here. Second, I just don't think you can separate the historical Jesus and the spiritual Jesus. They are the same person. If you reject the record of Jesus as he was on earth, then it's just not the same Jesus that I worship. I guess what I'm saying here is that the objective and the subjective have to go hand in hand. Believing a lot of facts is not enough; Christianity needs to be experiential. But pointing to an experience and putting all your stock in that opens the door to self-deception and/or Satanic deception. My experience and the Word of God must go hand in hand. -- ---\ Sharon Correll \--------------- ----\ University of Delaware \-------------- -----\ Academic Computing and Instructional Technology \------------- ------\ correll@sun.acs.udel.edu \------------
timh@linus.uucp (Tim Hoogasian) (10/03/90)
[ David Hatcher makes an appeal to "How" do Christians "Know" they're really following Christ, etc. ] david, i admire your honest appeal to folks asking for their personal "revelatory experiences", but your question cannot apply to everyone. Salvation is not a "feeling". it is a fact. if you follow the Owner's Manual that God has supplied us with, it doesn't matter whether or not you get some sort of mystcial emotion telling you "it's right." in fact, i find it safer NOT to trust fleeting emotions; but then, i'm a left- brained person, and i like to have reasons for everything i do and believe. instead of asking people how they "feel" about their relationship with the Holy One, why not ask how well they are conforming to His image, with regard to the directions supplied in the Manufacturer's Handbook (Bible)? --- Tim | ARPA: timh@ide.com Hoogasian | UUCP: sun!ide!timh (415) 543-0900 =============================================================================== #define DISCLAIMER "Are you nuts? I don't represent anyone, let alone myself!"
ta00est@unccvax.uncc.edu (elizabeth s tallant) (10/04/90)
In article <Sep.30.21.22.50.1990.16753@athos.rutgers.edu>, davidh@tektronix.tek.com (David L Hatcher) writes: > In article <Sep.27.04.59.34.1990.15158@athos.rutgers.edu> timv@cadfx.ccad.uiowa.edu (Timothy VanFosson) writes: > >In an article I posted you added this comment: > >> [This continues an exchange between David Hatcher and Tim Hoogasian > >> on the subject of Christ as the only way. The problem is > >>> there are so many > >>> from other spiritual traditions who also know and live with in > >>> the Grace and Glory of God just as much an *any* Christian does. > >> Both Tim and David seem to believe that there is some need for > >> rethinking what it means to say that Christ is the only way. --clh] > >> I personally know people, including my own husband, who have converted from Judiasm, Islam, and Hinduism who would wholeheartedly and without doubt disagree with this assumption. They will tell you in plain English that "something" was literally missing from inside of them until they became Christians, and that "something" was the Holy Spirit and salvation through Jesus Christ. They will tell you that although they believed in God's existance, they were definately NOT following Him as they should have and they definately did NOT have salvation. Now, there are many people in this world who will never see a Bible and will never enter a church. For example, in Saudia Arabia, one can be jailed for carrying a Bible and teaching the Gospel among the Saudi population. Therefore, most Saudis will never have access to the Bible or Christian teachings. Does that mean that these people will never reach Heaven? Certainly not. The Bible teaches that God has written His laws upon the hearts of (wo)man, therefore, those who do not have access to the written law will be judged differently than those of us who do. Still, we are instructed to spread the Gospel among the nations. Further, those who have the written law (us) will be held responsible for it. The Bible states that Christ said, "I am the way, the truth, and the light. NO MAN COMETH TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME." Anyone who implies other than this statement is without question teaching false doctrine. Anyone who implies that Mohammed, Guru Nanuck, Buddha, or anyone else is the way to Heaven, is, quite simply, WRONG. > In short, when going right to the Godhead, how does one know that > they have reached God through Jesus Christ? What sort of feedback or > spiritual experience lets them know that they are on the right track? > I suppose that everyone has something differnt to contribute here, but for me, I am sure that I know God through Jesus Christ because of what I "feel" inside. Now, I am not talking about feeling like a feeling of emtions, instead, I am talking about actually knowing that a diving being is living inside of me. I don't just "feel" or "think" that Christ is the way, I KNOW He is the way. Furthermore, I can see changes is myself and in my life over which I, by myself have no control. I know that God is making things happen for me. > OK, now to bring the experience of the Divine down here to earth. Those > whom have in some way actually touched God, in the spiritual sense, begin > to manifest a different self. They become changed. They change in a > way that reflects or mirror some aspect of the Divine that they have > touched. This is when the fruit is manifested and can be seen by all. > So in looking ~at~ the fruit, and ~how~ it is manifested, what aspect > of the Divine that is manifested through a Christian *IS NOT* also > manifested with in others of other spiritual paths? > As I mentioned above, those of other religions do not have the same inner peace as do Christians. They live in constant fear that they will go to he--. They do not have salvation, and therefore they fear God's judgement. Also, they do not feel the same love from God that Christians feel. Furthermore, wether they will admit it to you or not, they feel lost. They question "why should I pray five times a day, why should I not eat pork - what do these mechanical actions have to do with serving God?" Yet, this is part of their religion. They have religions of action. Other relgions teach that eternal life or eternal damnation rests upon whether or not they don't eat beef, pork, or whatever. Yet, followers try to obey these rules out of fear for their souls much moreso than out of love for God. While this will no doubt draw criticism from those of other religions, just ask those who have converted to Christianity. They will tell you that their rantings, ravings, and cursing of Jesus were much moreso attempts to reassure themselves tham to convince anyone else. > Question: > There is a difference in the experiences of the > Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Does the > Christian experience those 3 Divine Persons in > 3 distinct ways, or do they experience them > all by a general awareness? Yes and yes. Elizabeth Tallant ta00ext@unccvax.uncc.edu