jrossi@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Joe "Bart" Rossi) (10/01/90)
On the subject of the subject of social drinking and drug use, in respect to Jesus, I am not aware of any instance where Jesus condemned or preached against such sin. If I am wrong, feel free to correct me, but Jesus did come eating and drinking with sinners. Sometimes I get the impression that some folks seem to think that the folks that flocked around Jesus, whom the Pharisee's and Saducces called "unclean," somehow dropped all of their sinful behaviour in Jesus's prescence and then only engaged in the occassional social glass of wine that people presume that Jesus had. I happen to think this rather unrealistic, and what I find more plausible is that while those that were drawn to Jesus were drawn by his unconditional love for them, even though they be "unclean" sinners, they, like any of us, were unable to instantly change their behaviour at the drop of a hat. So I happen to believe that Jesus practiced tolerance with those tax collectors, prostitutes, and drinkers that he ministered to. I don't think that these sins ranked anywhere as high as the "sin" of the self-righteous religious hypocrite. To me the dinstinction that I feel he saw, was the difference between humble, yet sinful, struggling humans, drowning their sorrow in drink, or struggling to feed themselves through prostitution and arrogant, and also sinful, religious hypocrites, who somehow thought they were above the unclean lot. Ironic also is his comment that a physician comes to heal the sick and thus implying that those Pharisee's and Saducces were not in need of his ministry. But how untrue! I believe he was reacting to their assumption that they did not need his help. The sinners knew they were sinners, and yet were more real. The lived real lives and had real pain, that they medicated with drink. He lived among the sinners because they were better company. He identified more with their suffering than with the obedient to the Law mindset of the Pharisee's. Just some thoughts I've been thinking...
lins@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Lindsay Gower) (10/04/90)
jrossi@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Joe "Bart" Rossi) writes: >Sometimes I get the impression that some folks seem to think >that the folks that flocked around Jesus, whom the Pharisee's >and Saducces called "unclean," somehow dropped all of their >sinful behaviour in Jesus's prescence and then only engaged >in the occassional social glass of wine that people presume >that Jesus had. I happen to think this rather unrealistic, >and what I find more plausible is that while those that >were drawn to Jesus were drawn by his unconditional love >for them, even though they be "unclean" sinners, they, >like any of us, were unable to instantly change their >behaviour at the drop of a hat. >So I happen to believe that Jesus practiced tolerance with >those tax collectors, prostitutes, and drinkers that he >religious hypocrite. To me the dinstinction that I I agree that it is the rare sinner who immediately upon his entering into a loving relationship with Christ is never more beset by his/her failing sin. I have a minor quibble, which might simply be semantic, over your word "tolerance." Praise God that he is so tolerant and forgiving of our failings, but let's always remember that tolerance is not permission. >Ironic also is his comment that a physician comes to >heal the sick and thus implying that those Pharisee's >and Saducces were not in need of his ministry. But >how untrue! I believe he was reacting to their >assumption that they did not need his help. The >sinners knew they were sinners, and yet were more >real. The lived real lives and had real pain, >that they medicated with drink. He lived among >the sinners because they were better company. >He identified more with their suffering than with >the obedient to the Law mindset of the Pharisee's. I don't quite agree with you here, Joe. EVERYONE Jesus has ever met is living a mighty real life; all need his saving grace. There are plenty of hypocritical druggies and arrogant drinkers in this world. But looking thrugh the Gospel accounts, I read that Jesus spent more time with "sinners" because _they invited him._ The Lord is of course as compassionate toward the Pharisees' as towards any tax collector, prostitute, or naive fisherman. But some people shunned him, and some people sought him out. With bizarre illogic, the people who had _not_ invited him to their homes then complained about where he choose to accept the invitation -- but as he loves us all, he most certainly would have dined with the Pharisees had they asked. Some sinners know they are in pain; some don't. There is no special kind of sin that makes you humble and aware of your hurt (which you seem to imply about drinkers). But it doesn't matter if a person is a repentent Pharisee or an unrepentant drink/drug abuser -- Jesus "identifies" with anyone's pain. And those are my thoughts... Lindsay Gower UniSoft Corporation lins@unisoft.com