timh@linus.uucp (Tim Hoogasian) (09/23/90)
In article <Sep.18.04.48.49.1990.9331@athos.rutgers.edu> jrossi@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Joe "Bart" Rossi) writes: >In article <Sep.13.04.18.00.1990.24908@athos.rutgers.edu> johnw@stew.ssl.berkeley.edu (John Warren) writes: >>As for other theists or new-agers or agnostics or deists or whatever: it >>may be ironically and tragically true that they live in God's presence as >>much as the average Christian does. if you want to say that the reason you say this is because "God is everywhere" then this is sentence true. >>However, the Christian who lives by >>faith (i.e., faith as a working principle, not just a belief) has the >>promise of the Holy Spirit, the comforter. Jesus promised that to no >>one else. you make it sound like some sort of exclusive "club." Of *course* he didn't promise it to anyone who chose not to follow Him. to do otherwise would have made His death to have no purpose. >>That, however, is not to say that no one else can receive >>the Holy Spirit: I don't know, and I wouldn't rule out the possibility >>of a *few* non-Christians receiving Him. i would. God can certainly work in the lives of non-Christians if He so chooses - how else do they come to recognize Him? But to suggest that they may lay hold of Salvation without acknowledging Jesus Christ as Lord is preposterous. >>But the only guarantee of >>being able to be close to God, and feeling and knowing that closeness, >>is by going through the narrow door, i.e., following Jesus Christ. the only guarantee of knowing SALVATION is to follow Christ. salvation is not, nor has it ever been, a "feeling." it is a *fact*. i know many times i may not "feel" very saved, but i know it is a *fact* that i am saved by Jesus Christ's blood, and that alone. >If God loves us so much why does he make it so hard for us to come to >him. Why isn't he more accessible? God didn't make it hard on us to come to Him. we made it hard on ourselves. Jesus Christ didn't have to die on the Cross - he *gave* Himself. He had the authority to call legions of angels to fight for Him, but He did not. all we have to do is respond to His gift; to accept it. how bold we sinners are, to suggest that we'll only take His gift if we can do it on *our* terms! what an extraordinary amount of arrogant pride! it's not that God has made things all that tough, it's that we sinners don't want to have to accept his Authority. "God is Love" sells lots of books, but "God wants you to surrender *everything* to Him" doesn't play very well to the mass audience, because it involves SACRIFICE (horrors)! >I would argue our purpose is to let God's Love flow through us, to let >God live in us, and thus draw people to God's Love by living it. >Pointing out the only sure way is tricky. Do you point to Catholic >Church and its emphasis on ritual, or do you point to John Calvin? >Do you point to Luther, or just to your favorite charismatic >church. Do you point to the Bible, and if you do, do you point to >the Apocrypha? i get the distinct impression that it's not a matter for you of whether or not Christ is who He says He is - your arguments suggest that you're trying to nitpick your way into Heaven. Sorry, but you won't win any arguments with God by clever debating tactics. The directions are very simple: Recognize and confess that you are a sinner, hopelessly lost without Jesus Christ; ask Him to forgive and cleanse you, and to come into your life as your Lord, holding back *nothing* from Him; then take up your cross and follow Him, *wherever* He may lead you. if reading and understanding these directions is difficult for you, then i'd like to point out that the problem is not His - it's yours. >Problem is, pointing to Christ in this context ends up a direction >to a set of beliefs, and not necessarily to Christ. if a Christian tells you that you have to be part of his "religious denomination" to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, then at best he's (very) sincerely mistaken, and at worst is a fraud: *not* a Christian. >One of way of pointing to Christ is to live Christ i.e. if you think you're going to manage to pull off a perfect life, then i'll be interested to watch you try. fortunately, Christians don't have to worry about whether they're "good enough" because Christ already paid the price for them, to enter the Kingdom of God. >Incidentally, I am now of the persecuted. There is a certain police chief >who thinks that my type out to be taken and shot. I don't make this >statement lightly, but it is an errie feeling knowing that there are some >who just as soon kill you. i have an idea of whom and of what you are referring to, but for the moment, it doesn't matter, regarding "persecution". and if you find yourself among the number counted as persecuted, you'll be in good company. Christ warned His followers that they would have to take up their crosses when they chose to make Him their Lord. He warned us in the Beattitudes that Christians would be mocked and persecuted, so while it's not fun, it's not remarkable. >love, > >Joe > likewise, Tim --- Tim | ARPA: timh@ide.com Hoogasian | UUCP: sun!ide!timh (415) 543-0900 =============================================================================== #define DISCLAIMER "Are you nuts? I don't represent anyone, let alone myself!"
schallen@ncar.ucar.edu (Eric Schallenmueller) (10/01/90)
Right on! Your comments to me seem well-founded on sound doctrine. We really do make it hard on ourselves. You sound like a straight-line Christian who makes no arguments and just loves Jesus. The impression I get from reading this net is that there are very few fellows like you (and me), but lots of Mormons and New-Agers who happen to be at a point in their 'voyage' as to say nice controversial things about who Jesus is to them. Do you get the same impression? Let me know, I'd like to hear from others like yourself more often. We seem to be rare types. Eric P.S. Have you read books like "The Mormon Papers" by H.L. Ropp or "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell? [Not at all. The majority of our readers appear to be reasonably middle of the road Protestants and Catholics. The problem is that when you have people of differing perspective, discussion of the large differences tends to dominate everything else. I personally would prefer to see less discussion of Protestant/Catholic, LDS, etc., and more substantive issues. But as long as readers feel that they have to respond to anything they disagree with, you'll see what you see here. Feel free to ignore all this and post on other subjects. Note however that you cannot reasonably expect to make postings that are anti-LDS, anti-New Age, etc., without provoking LDS and New Age responses. --clh]
schallen@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov (Eric Schallenmueller) (10/04/90)
>Right on! Your comments to me seem well-founded on sound doctrine. We >really do make it hard on ourselves. You sound like a straight-line >Christian who makes no arguments and just loves Jesus. >The impression I get from reading this net is that there are very few >fellows like you (and me), but lots of Mormons and New-Agers who happen >to be at a point in their 'voyage' as to say nice controversial things >about who Jesus is to them. Do you get the same impression? >Let me know, I'd like to hear from others like yourself more often. We >seem to be rare types. >Eric >P.S. Have you read books like "The Mormon Papers" by H.L. Ropp >or "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell? Who in the world would write this garbage!?!? Me! I didn't intend to have it broadcast to the entire net. This morning I got a mail message chewing me out for being a pompous self-righteous idiot and couldn't figure out why. Then I saw my post which I had thought had gone to Tim Hoogasian. I have been hitting 'r' after reading posts that I agreed with and responded with positive encouragement to those who appeared to have similar faiths to mine. In other newsgroups, my response has gone straight to the sender. Apparently that is not the case with this one. The moderator got it and for some reason decidced it was to him (or her) and thought all should read my post. Since I have already offended one person, I shall apologize to all, since I no doubt offended many. I offer no defense other than this net software seems really whacked out and I apparently don't understand it. My question now is: what has been happening to my responses? Is the moderaotr getting them and forwarding them? Throwing them away? Also, where do I post to (address)? I have tried postnews and it says the group is moderated, sends it to the moderator and declares that it has been posted successfully!!! I have gotten them back as undeliverable and don't know why. Regarding my stance toward Mormons and New-Agers: I have no problem with either of these groups as I meet the induviduals. I DO have a problem with an organization referred to as The Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah. I spent 2-3 hours a week for 12 weeks with some missionaries listening to their doctrine and couldn't believe some of the things they had to say. They always started with sound doctrine and seemed to twist it. Most of what I heard has been repeated in this newsgroup. As far as New-Age, I have many friends who are in this group. The way I see it, they are being deceived by folks such as Shirley McClain and John Denver who are cleaning up at the bank because of their well-intended efforts. As far as rebuttles, I certainly expect people to defend themselves and things as touchy as beleifs. I don't expect anyone to respond to this post. If you do, please respond directly to me we can chat 1to1. This net is full of enough postings without me getting involved and I'd much rather monitor and respond individually than blab a lot and pretend to be all-knowing and educated. Regarding my note from a unitarian: I try to be a humble person. Yes, I am an arrogant person and occassionally it shows up in my writings. I pray that I will be more humble, and this posting has definately helped humble me. However, I do beleive I have just cause to be arrogant: MY GOD IS AN AWESOME GOD!! LIC Eric Schallenmuller "There is not enough evidence [within and surrounding the Bible] to force a man into the Kingdom who will not go. However, there is more than sufficient evidence to bring someone in who is open to eveidence." Pascal, French Philosopher [Postings are sent with the original author intact in the From field, so if your news software is doing the right thing, a reply should go to the original author, and a followup should be posted, which results in it going to me. Anything that comes to the submission address (christian@cs.rutgers.edu or a couple of other Rutgers machines) looks to me like a submission. Sometimes things are obviously personal, in which case I'll either pass them on to the apparent addressee, or ask what was meant. Maybe I should have done that with this one, but it's not unusual to have postings that address another party to the current discussion. --clh]
walsh@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com (10/07/90)
In article <Oct.3.23.26.45.1990.1983@athos.rutgers.edu>, dinl!schallen@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov (Eric Schallenmueller) writes: > However, I do beleive I have just cause to be arrogant: MY GOD IS AN AWESOME > GOD!! > i thought that knowledge was supposed to make you humble. ando.