kamphau@oktext.sbc.com (Mark Kamphaus) (10/03/90)
>We are also specifically warned against trying to predict times >and places. References please. I see no warning, in fact the prophecy is given for understanding and to be preached for salvation. See Rev 22:7. how can one obey "prophecy" if we are not to study it? Understanding what is to come is a part of it. I have not seen any scripture that says I am not to try to understand it but rather told, "let he who has ears, let him hear." >This sort of thing runs into the danger of worshipping the book >and forgetting its message. Seeing parallels with current >events and scriptural events is one thing, but claiming that >current events are specific fulfillments of prophecy is >generally dangerous nonsense. The notion of "multiple >fulfillment" was presumably invented to cover up the >embarrassment of those who have been too quick to claim >fulfillment of prophecy. Every age seems to have those who >think the run of the mill disasters and wars of the time are >fulfillment of prophecy. >Matthew Huntbach Claiming that certain events are fulfillment of prophecy can be dangerous. It is not, however, nonsense. If prophecy says that there will be a reestablishment of a nation called Isreal and will have a banner with the symbol of the "root of Jesse" who will speak the holy language, and we see a nation formed called Isreal that adopts as its flag the star of David and revives a dead language that has only been used for its religous ceremony called Hebrew, then calling it only coincidence would seem nonsense to me. In regards to multiple fulfillment, I will argue that there has not been fulfillment yet. There has been prefillment or fulfillment in type, that is a symbolic fulfillment through whatever event that provides a physical prophecy of the same event. To understand how an event or object or a person represents the same prophecy of something to come rather than a fulfillment of it see Paul's comments on Sarah and Hagar, and how they are represented by mountains and they prophecy they make. (Galatians 4:21-31.) The prophecy of Sarah's pregnancy not only had an immediate fulfillment but pointed to yet future events to be fulfilled. You have to understand this technique as Paul uses it quite extensively. (other events, circumcision, baptism- like Moses and the red sea, resurrection or in the above, the difference in covenants, slave and free, law and grace.) In fact look at any where in the New Testament Epistles and see if you can find two consecutive chapters that do not either make references about prophecy that has been fulfilled or the manner in which it is to be fulfilled so that the reader will know what is to happen. It just seems such a strange perspective that modern christians feel compelled not to take the same view of prophecy as is demonstrated. One day somebody is going to "guess" right. mark [I suspect the reference about not knowing times and seasons was to I Thes 5:1, however Mat 24:36 is also relevant, since it indicates that even Jesus didn't know. --clh]
tom@dvnspc1.dev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) (10/07/90)
In article <Oct.3.02.59.13.1990.12961@athos.rutgers.edu> kamphau@oktext.sbc.com (Mark Kamphaus) writes: > >Claiming that certain events are fulfillment of prophecy >can be dangerous. It is not, however, nonsense. If >prophecy says that there will be a reestablishment of >a nation called Isreal ... If is says that, fine. But it doesn't. Political Isr*AE*l is long gone. History. The new Israel and the new Jerusalem are the established divine agency. It's called the Church (Gal. 6:16; Heb. 12:22; Rev. 21:2,9,10). >[I suspect the reference about not knowing times and seasons was to I >Thes 5:1, however Mat 24:36 is also relevant, since it indicates that >even Jesus didn't know. --clh] Date setting has always been popular. It's what got the Millerites, Jehovah's Witnesses, and others in trouble during the last century. More recently, it got a fellow named Edgar Whisenant in trouble. You may recall he wrote a little book called _88 Reasons Why the Rapture will occur in 1988_. The dispensationalists are still waiting for Edgar's rapture. Hal Lindsey suffers from the same affliction. He predicted that the Rapture would occur within 40 years (or so) of 1948, 'cause that's when Israel was restored as a nation to the land. He also wrote a book called _The 1980s; Countdown to Destiny_ or something close. I'll wonder what he'll come up with for the 1990s, and 2000s, and 2010s, ... -- Tom Albrecht
kamphau@oktext.sbc.com (Mark Kamphaus) (10/18/90)
> In article <Oct.3.02.59.13.1990.12961@athos.rutgers.edu> kamphau@oktext.sbc.com (Mark Kamphaus) writes: > > > >Claiming that certain events are fulfillment of prophecy > >can be dangerous. It is not, however, nonsense. If > >prophecy says that there will be a reestablishment of > >a nation called Isreal ... To which Tom Albrecht responded: > If is says that, fine. But it doesn't. Then what does the Ezekial's vision of the valley of dry bones represent. Something different than the interpretaion that was given to him? The bones are the whole house of Isreal that are to be regathered in the last days. > Political Isr*AE*l is long > gone. History. And the middle-east is my imagination? What does "political" Israel mean? That there is no such nation? That there is no such government? Maybe that they don't have an army? Howabout a UN seat? OR do you just mean something rhetorical so that you can say that it doesn't exist. Sound's immpressive but has little substance. > The new Israel and the new Jerusalem are the > established divine agency. It's called the Church (Gal. 6:16; Heb. > 12:22; Rev. 21:2,9,10). Gal 6:16 " As for those who follow this rule in their lives, may peace and mercy be with them - with them and with all God's people." [TEV] sorry, this seems to be a misquoted proof-text. It doesn't say anything about the Church nor Israel nor Jerusalem. Heb. 12:22 " Instead you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem with its thousands of angels." [TEV] This is Pauls contrast to Mt. Sinai and figurative of Grace and the Law. It doesn't mention the Church at all. Another out of context proof-text. The last quote fairs even worse in context. Maybe thats why it needs to be abbreviated to leave out the middle as well as the prefacing comments. I'm not sure how far back I need to supply the context. Rev 20:7-10 tells how after the 1000yr reign that satan is bound and thrown into the lake of fire. Rev 20:11-15 concerns the great "white throne" judgement with the destruction of death and hades occuring in verse 14. Rev21 1-10, concerns the "heavenly" Jerusalems decent from heaven to the earth where all things have been made new and there is no more death, tears, unhappiness. see v4. Again this fails to show any relationship to the Church being the substitute Israel or Jerusalem. For me, since I still see death, I have to conclude that this is a future event that will occur after the dead are rasied and judgement passed. And finally, what are we to do with Romans 9-11? Paul the apostle to the gentiles doesn't jump on your band wagon and say "look, all these promises that God gave the Jews now belong to Church because the Church is now Israel. In fact he says quite the opposite. Maybe 11:25 "... The stuborness of the people of Israel IS NOT PERMANENT, but will last only until the complete number of gentiles come to God." Looks like when God says Israel, thats what he meant. > Date setting has always been popular. It's what got the Millerites, > Jehovah's Witnesses, and others in trouble during the last century. [ rest of straw man deleted ] I would hasten to add that that includes 70AD as well. See the paragraph you quoted of mine above. > Tom Albrecht mark
tom@dvnspc1.dev.unisys.com writes: (Tom Albrecht) (10/18/90)
I agree with Tom's post, and would add that Revelation indicates that no rapture will occur when it speaks of the multitude who are uncountable, who wear white robes washed in the blood of the Lamb. There is not Rapture without suffering and martyrdom. Those who wish the highest form of salvation must take up their crosses and follow Him in suffering. .-- .Tom Albrecht Michael Bindner