[soc.religion.christian] Extra-terrestrial worlds

vvrcd@mars.lerc.nasa.gov (Robert C. Dibacco (SVER)) (10/01/90)

I have a question that I would like an opinion on.  May be no one wants to but
that is OK too.  I have always been interested in the stars and science fiction
and also am a Christian.  My knowledge of what the Churches in general preach
is that we are unique in the Universe.  I have always found this hard to 
swallow because the Universe is so vast. In fact I believe there is other worlds
out there that have life (no doubt humans) that are far far away.  I feel that
God put them so far away so we can not get to them.  I do not find it hard to
believe that God in his omnipotence did not create other live worlds.  Possibly
they did not even "fall into sin" like we did.  I really would like some 
opinions and NO I never had a contact with UFOS nor do I believe in them or
have been taken alive by any.

Thanks In ADVANCE
=============================================================================
Bob DiBacco (Sverdrup Technology)
NASA Lewis Research Center
vvrcd@mars.lerc.nasa.gov
Phone (216) 891-2222
=============================================================================

[I don't know of any official doctrine one way or the other.  I don't
see anything in the Bible or Christian doctrine that would have any
problem with other species.  Christian tradition placed mankind in a
hierarchy that included angels and other created species other than
ours.  Though angels are probably not quite what you are thinking of,
it certainly indicates a view that allows intelligent beings other
than us.  --clh]

David.Anderson@cs.cmu.edu (10/03/90)

Lynn, here.

As I understand it, most Christians "officially" believe that Terra is
the only planet inhabited by human beings like us. However, lds
scripture indicates otherwise:

"And worlds without number have I [God] created.... But only an account
of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold,
there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And
there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man..."
(Moses 1:33, 35)

"For we saw him [Christ], even on the right hand of God; and we heard
the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father--
That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were
created, adn the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters
unto God." (Doctrine & Covenants 76:23-24)

I believe it is lds doctrine that the fall of Adam was a *universal*
fall, affecting all of humanity on all worlds for all times, and that
likewise the atonement of Christ is universal in its scope. (This idea
of other worlds and the universality of Christ's work is by no means a
new or exclusively lds idea. There are some interesting gnostic writings
on the subject, including the notion that our world has been
"quarantined"--that other worlds are allowed to communicate with each
other, but because our planet is the "staging area" for God's eternal
plan, as it were--we are isolated.)

PS: I saw a UFO (along with a hundred other girl scouts) when I was 8
years old. I didn't know what to call it back then (1965); it was
strictly a fly-by (not a "close encounter of the third kind").
Definitely not "swamp gas" or headlights or meteorite or whatever. This
thing was brilliant white, *enormous*, perfectly round, with a hard
edge. It filled the whole sky, and moved very fast. I've always wanted
to see another! :-)

[I don't know of any official statements on the subject.  Does anyone
else?  There have been a few science fiction stories and books
exploring this subject, and I've had private discussions, but I don't
recall any official doctrine.  --clh]

mgobbi@cs.ubc.ca (Mike Gobbi) (10/04/90)

The question of what alien civilizations would do to our theology is,
naturally enough, a theme that has been used in science fiction a fair
bit.  Alan Dean Foster pops into my mind as an author who makes at least
a token stab at the problem both in NOR CRYSTAL TEARS (a man-meets-insect
story) and in QUOZL (a man-meets-bunnies tale).  Unfortunately his stabs
are just token.  If anybody out there knows of books that take a serious
and detailed look at this conflict I would like to hear about them.

I personally disagree with the poster's opinion that, regarding the stars,
"God put them so far away so we cannot get to them."  I have no trouble with
aliens in my theology whether or not we ever meet them.  Encountering native
americans did not spell the doom of Christianity, and I don't see that being
of a different species (as opposed to race) should be any different.  The
notion that "God created man in his own image" clearly cannot be taken
COMPLETELY literally, since there is so much variation in what various men
look like.  I have no trouble extrapolating this to suppose that the image
we were created in was a spiritual one, and alien physiologies can fit the
bill.

With regards to alien religions, I feel that the historical precedence will
hold.  Looking again to the Indians for an example, we see that they had a
theology of their own before encountering the Christian faith.  They were
just as saved by Christ's actions as the Jews, unawareness of the incident
notwithstanding.  Similarly, any extraterrestrial beings would have been
saved by Jesus' sacrifice despite the fact that they have never heard of him
(or even of humanity...)

Perhaps the Mormons view is correct and after visiting America, Jesus went
interstellar to see the other citizens of the galaxy.  Maybe indeed all
forms (and tribes) of intelligent life HAVE seen our savior.  (although,
not being a Mormon myself I do not accept this premise).
--
     __
    /..\      In quest of knowledge....
 --mm--mm--         Mike Gobbi


[Actually, I know of a fair number of books that try to look at the
religious implications of aliens.  Those that I can come up with at
the moment are the following.  All of these are very fine books that
seriously examine various models of alien religion.  I'm going to
summarize them to the point where they sound silly, but they're all
very good.  This is by no means a complete list, just all I can find
lying around at home that seem to merit the term "serious".

Richard Bowker, "Forbidden Sanctuary".  An alien who is a member of a
Christian-analog group being persecuted by a Roman-analog society
takes refuge with the Catholic Church while visiting earth.  They have
an apparently superior technology and demand that he be returned or
they will destroy us.

Joan Slowczewski, "Still Forms on Foxfield".  Quaker colonists on
another planet develop a symbiotic relationship with entities that
have group intelligence, and who perceive things at the quantum level
directly.  One of the nicest jobs at trying to come up with a really
alien creature.  Interesting to see how Quakers cope with a species
whose viewpoint is almost completely unintelligible, and with a
challenge from folks from earth who want to annex the planet to a new
empire that considers religion no longer of any value.

Robert R. Chase, "The Game of Fox and Lion".  The aliens are
genetically engineered, starting with some human genes.  The
protagonist is an engineered human computer, who has become a monk.
No one will believe that his religion is real, as it looks like he
took refuge with the monks just to save his life.  But it is.  (Indeed
he's probably one of the finest Christian protagonists I've run into.)
There are a number of ethical and religious issues involving people
who in various ways are outside the bounds of humanity.

John Barnes, "Sin of Origin".  Catholic missionaries work with a group
of aliens whose sexuality is such that their normal way of life would
be considered inherently sinful in humans.  They appear to be
impossibly hostile.  The challenge is to get to understand them before
the military manages to solve the problem by wiping them all out.
Postulates a universe where the Catholic church includes non-human
members and leaders, with the expected tensions.

James Blish, "A Case of Conscience".  Catholic missionaries find a
planet apparently without sin.  It's a very complex and subtle book
that's hard to summarize, but the conclusion seems to be that the
whole planet is a setup created by Satan.

The C.S. Lewis space trilogy is well enough known that I'm not going
to bother giving any details.  Andrew Greeley has written an SF
involving a group of Catholic missionaries working among non-humans,
but I don't recall either the title or any details.

--clh]

st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) (10/07/90)

The closest reference I can think of in the Bible to the topic of other
worlds is the first chapter of Job, where we read that the "sons of God"
came to present themselves before the Lord and Satan also came among them.

Satan says that he has come from walking up and down the earth, it could be
construed that the other sons of God were from other planets.

This gives trouble if you wish to interpret Genesis 6 consistently because
here the "sons of God" take wives of the daughters of men.  I have seen
supermarket tabloids use this as evidence that extra-terrestrial sex  did
at one time occur.  I don't agree with this view.
Seventh-day Adventist theologians would tend to believe that the gathering
of the sons of God *was* a gathering of extra-terrestrials in Job 1.
This leads us to believe that other worlds are indeed inhabited, but unfallen.

The atonement of Christ was needed only for this world.  It served another
purpose in letting the unfallen universe see the results of sin--what sin
would lead those who practiced it to do--to kill God, the source of love.

Steve

kw1r+@andrew.cmu.edu (Kevin Whitley) (10/07/90)

C.S. Lewis wrote an essay called "Religion and Rocketry" which deals
exactly with the questions you raise.  My copy is in a book called "The
World's Last Night and other essays" and is published by Harcourt Brace
Jovanovich.

A brief synopsis of the points he makes are

1) The existence of life on other planets shouldn't be a difficulty for
Christians, shouldn't even really be raised as an issue at all until we
know that there really is life (there's lots of speculation now but
nobody really knows and the speculation is actually quite wild), and
that the life has rational souls.

2) Then we start to worry about whether these other beings are fallen. 
Maybe they are maybe they aren't.  How can we know?  Maybe God redeems
them as He redeemed us, maybe he didn't have to, maybe he did it some
other way.

3) If there are other beings, there are going to be problems when we
meet them.  The European civilisation hasn't treated less materially
advanced cultures very well, we will do the same to any other cultures
we meet in space.  And they (if we are less advanced) are likely to do
the same to us.  Not fun.  But if we run into an unfallen race, would we
even be able to recognize it.  Or would we try to convert them to our,
inappropriate, way.

I am in agreement with pretty much everything Lewis says in this essay. 
I would just emphasize that such speculation is interesting, but really
it is all so guesswork and far-fetched that nobody should ever have any
faith difficulties due to this.


I might point out that there is an idea called the "anthropic principle"
kicking around among some scientists.  This principle states that the
universe is so odd, our chances of being here so slight, that there must
be a "design" for life to be possible in the universe.  (I should point
out that the average materialist scientist considers this idea to be
lunatic fringe).  I recommend a book by P.C.W. Davies called "The
Accidental Universe", Cambridge University Press.


Kevin Whitley
kw1r@andrew.cmu.edu

BINDNER@auvm.auvm.edu (10/07/90)

I don't think there are any "official statements" as the matter has
never been proposed as a serious possibility.  I would tend to be
guided by Christ's instruction to baptize even unto the ends of the
earth.  The earth is man's.  Assuming other civilizations exist (a
necessary assumption for one with knowledge of astro-physics) I would
favor a hands off policy.  If other civilizations (if/when found) wish
to accept Christ, they should be allowed to.  We should not fight any
interplanetary wars for the Lord.

In reference to the fall of Adam, this is allegory which points out
man's sinful nature especially regarding blame (Eve made me eat the
apple, God made me naked and without the knowledge of good and evil).
It may or may not apply to other planets, though I feel it is probably
a universal condition among intelligent beings.  As far as this planet
being a universal staging arena for Christ's passion I would argue
(somewhat heretically) that it is more likely Christ lived and died
simultaneously (though in different times) in all intelligent worlds
(as God the Son He is beyond time).

Finally, I would cite as an example of proper inter-world contact the
story of the great flood (which is the oldest verifiable biblical
event - the Ark does exist on Ararat).  God commanded the flood because
beings thought to be sons of God (beings from the sky) had married
the daughters of man, producing the heros of old.  Might these have
been astronauts from another culture?  Note the Lord's reaction to
the interaction.  I would advise the same if/when we become a space
faring race.

Until later,

Michael

credmond@watmath.waterloo.edu (Chris Redmond) (10/07/90)

In article <Oct.4.03.02.31.1990.5482@athos.rutgers.edu> mgobbi@cs.ubc.ca (Mike Gobbi) writes:

>With regards to alien religions, I feel that the historical precedence will
>hold.  Looking again to the Indians for an example, we see that they had a
>theology of their own before encountering the Christian faith.  They were
>just as saved by Christ's actions as the Jews, unawareness of the incident
>notwithstanding.  Similarly, any extraterrestrial beings would have been
>saved by Jesus' sacrifice despite the fact that they have never heard of him
>(or even of humanity...)

If this is what Mike meant to say, I think he is mistaken.

Extraterrestrial beings would need to be "saved", by Jesus's sacrifice
or otherwise, *only* if they were fallen (sinful).  There is no
reason I can think of to assume that some other species or race
would be fallen -- original sin is, according to Christian teaching,
a historical property of human beings.

Some of the science fiction works to which our Moderator referred
later in the posting, including the well-known novels of C. S. Lewis,
explore the interesting idea of fallen humans encountering unfallen
'klingons', so perhaps this point is obvious to most readers, but
I thought it needed to be repeated.

"Have you been saved?" is not the first thing to say to a Martian.  :-)


CAR
credmond@watmath

kday@dtoa1.dt.navy.mil (Day) (10/07/90)

In article <Sep.30.20.21.17.1990.16019@athos.rutgers.edu> vvrcd@mars.lerc.nasa.gov (Robert C. Dibacco (SVER)) writes:
>I have a question that I would like an opinion on.  May be no one wants to but
>that is OK too.  I have always been interested in the stars and science fiction
>and also am a Christian.  My knowledge of what the Churches in general preach
>is that we are unique in the Universe.  I have always found this hard to
>swallow because the Universe is so vast. In fact I believe there is other world
>s
>out there that have life (no doubt humans) that are far far away.  I feel that
>God put them so far away so we can not get to them.  I do not find it hard to
>believe that God in his omnipotence did not create other live worlds.  Possibly
>they did not even "fall into sin" like we did.  I really would like some
>opinions and NO I never had a contact with UFOS nor do I believe in them or
>have been taken alive by any.
>
  This is something I have often thought about. I remember when the
movie E.T. came out. Pat Robertson, on the 700 Club, advised people
not to take their children to see it. I respect Pat very much and appreciate
his ministry, but I had to disagree strongly with him. He said the reason
for not going was, because it advocated life on other planets. I thought,
and thought and I could not come up with any scriptural basis for saying
it was an impossibility. The Bible doesn't deal with the subject.
  I agree with you, why would God make the universe so immense but only
have living beings on one tiny planet. Could it be just so we could
enjoy the beauty of a starlit summer evening? Maybe. The point is, the
Bible doesn't talk about life on other planets. Does this mean there
is none? Not necessarily.
  If someone out there in netland has some scriptural reference either
way, please feel free to share it.

K. Scott Day
David Taylor Research Center
Bethesda, Maryland

All thoughts expressed are strictly my own, though it's amazing this
brain is still capable of having any.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
 "The more one comes to know men, the more one comes to admire the dog."
						  -Joussenel
------------------------------------------------------------------------

muts@fysaj.fys.ruu.nl (Peter Mutsaers /100000) (10/07/90)

David.Anderson@cs.cmu.edu writes:

>As I understand it, most Christians "officially" believe that Terra is
>the only planet inhabited by human beings like us. However, lds
>scripture indicates otherwise:

>[I don't know of any official statements on the subject.  Does anyone
>else?  There have been a few science fiction stories and books
>exploring this subject, and I've had private discussions, but I don't
>recall any official doctrine.  --clh]

What is meant by 'official' belief? The only thing the Bible tells us about is
the earths situation, so further we don't know.

As some may know C.S.Lewis, who is quite respected among a lot of Christians,
has fantasized about extra terrestrial life in his science fiction trilogy.

In his fantasy the earth was the only fallen planet, called 'the Silent Planet'
be the rest of the universe.

I don't think there is any reason to reject this idea on the basis of our faith,
but there is no reason to be sure of it either.
--
Peter Mutsaers                          email:    muts@fysaj.fys.ruu.nl     
Rijksuniversiteit Utrecht                         nmutsaer@ruunsa.fys.ruu.nl
Princetonplein 5                          tel:    (+31)-(0)30-533880
3584 CG Utrecht, Netherlands                                  

hall@vice.ico.tek.com (Hal Lillywhite) (10/07/90)

In article <Oct.3.03.23.26.1990.13349@athos.rutgers.edu> [Lynn]David.Anderson@cs.cmu.edu writes:
>Lynn, here.

>I believe it is lds doctrine that the fall of Adam was a *universal*
>fall, affecting all of humanity on all worlds for all times, and that
>likewise the atonement of Christ is universal in its scope. 

I don't think this is true, at least as far as Adam's fall affecting
other worlds goes.  Some have probably speculated to that effect but
others have speculated that each world has an "Adam" of its own.
While not contrary to any official doctrine, I don't believe we can
say that LDS doctrine includes any belief in "our" Adam affecting
other worlds.

The idea that Jesus' atonement affects other worlds is on somewhat
firmer ground as indicated in the D&C quote Lynn included.  This
quote seems to indicate that all worlds are made by his power and
redeemed by him ("The inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and
daughters unto God.").  I've heard people try to explain this away
and claim that each "earth" must have its own redeemer but I don't
find their arguments very convincing.

>                                                        (This idea
>of other worlds and the universality of Christ's work is by no means a
>new or exclusively lds idea. There are some interesting gnostic writings
>on the subject, including the notion that our world has been
>"quarantined"--that other worlds are allowed to communicate with each
>other, but because our planet is the "staging area" for God's eternal
>plan, as it were--we are isolated.)

Well, I don't know about the Gnostic writings mentioned but the idea
of a quarantined earth certainly shows up in C.S. Lewis' _Out of the
Silent Planet_.  Earth is portrayed as the silent planet because of
such a quarantine although the reasons for that quarantine are
different from what Lynn mentions.  (I wonder if Lewis may have read
some of the Gnostic writings and got the idea from them.)

jwtlai@watcgl.waterloo.edu (Jim W Lai) (10/18/90)

In article <Oct.6.23.05.14.1990.1605@athos.rutgers.edu> kday@dtoa1.dt.navy.mil
(Day) writes in response to someone:
>  I agree with you, why would God make the universe so immense but only
>have living beings on one tiny planet. Could it be just so we could
>enjoy the beauty of a starlit summer evening? Maybe. The point is, the
>Bible doesn't talk about life on other planets. Does this mean there
>is none? Not necessarily.

Considering the fact that there are an uncountable (well, ok, VERY LARGE)
number of stars that are not visible to the naked eye, I'm sure the stars
are not out there merely for aesthetic reasons.  Just a thought.

carroll@beaver.cs.washington.edu (Jeff Carroll) (10/18/90)

In article <Sep.30.20.21.17.1990.16019@athos.rutgers.edu> vvrcd@mars.lerc.nasa.gov (Robert C. Dibacco (SVER)) writes:
>and also am a Christian.  My knowledge of what the Churches in general preach
>is that we are unique in the Universe.  I have always found this hard to... 

>[I don't know of any official doctrine one way or the other.  I don't
>see anything in the Bible or Christian doctrine that would have any
>problem with other species.  Christian tradition placed mankind in a
>hierarchy that included angels and other created species other than
>ours.  Though angels are probably not quite what you are thinking of,
>it certainly indicates a view that allows intelligent beings other
>than us.  --clh]

	This question certainly poses a problem for those who hold that
all non-Christians are damned. (It could be argued that the question is
merely hypothetical until the existence of extraterrestrial intelligence
is confirmed or denied; however a great deal of bandwidth continues to
be expended in discussion of the equally hypothetical question of
the fate of the soul of the savage who has never heard the name of
Jesus.)

	Those who hold such a position are bound to one of two
conclusions regarding this question:

	a) If extraterrestrial beings have knowledge of good and evil,
	and if they have sinned, then they are damned.

	b) Christ was revealed to these "other sheep" in another
	incarnation, similar to his revelation to the "Latter Day
	Saints".

	We seem to have escaped the FAQ of children worldwide, "Do
dogs/cats/parakeets/goldfish/bunnies/turtles/etc. go to Heaven?" by
arbitrarily defining that these animals have no moral sense, i.e., no
knowledge of good and evil. Do we have the data to support this
conclusion? If not, then how do we *know*  that Fido went to heaven? And
not knowing, how can we justify telling Junior that he did? For all we
know, Fido is burning in hell for stealing bones from some other dog
down the street.

	I personally am of the opinion that Christianity doesn't need
the threat of eternal damnation as a marketing tool, and that the
Scriptural grounds of such a doctrine are shaky. Each of us has quite
enough to do caring for the welfare of his own soul without worrying
about secondguessing the grace of God.

	Jeff Carroll
	carroll@atc.boeing.com

stq@cbnewsi.att.com (Scott T Questad) (10/19/90)

In article <Oct.6.23.05.14.1990.1605@athos.rutgers.edu>, kday@dtoa1.dt.navy.mil (Day) writes:
>   I agree with you, why would God make the universe so immense but only
> have living beings on one tiny planet. Could it be just so we could

Watch your reasoning.  God created us and the universe for *His* glory.
Your reasoning sounds to me like "God wouldn't waste all that real estate
that no one will ever see".