[soc.religion.christian] Jewish nation's position with God

timh@ide.com (Tim Hoogasian) (10/18/90)

In article <Oct.6.23.18.51.1990.1768@athos.rutgers.edu> ok@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au (Richard A. O'Keefe) writes:

>The thing which shocked
>me most was the discovery that I had more in common morally and
>theologically with him than with a particular person who appropriated
>the name of Christ.  

actually, a position of anti-Semetism is impossible for a *Christian*.  the
thrust of Christianity was not that Judaism was somehow perverse (since, 
the apostles were Jews to begin with, anyway!) but that the form of it
taught and practiced by the rabbinical authorities had much more in 
common with legalism (practicing the *letter* of the Law, while lacking
the *spirit* of the Law) than with the Law which God had presented them.

(i'll avoid a lengthy discourse on Justification by Faith, since Paul has 
more than adequately :-) addressed that issue in Galatians.)

anyway, the point is that Christians and Jews should not perceive themselves
as at odds on what the Law says, since Christianity did not "abolish" the
Law, but rather superceeded it.  the Law was Perfect.  and by it's very per-
fection, it was a ministry of death to those who attempted to live legally
perfect lives, since to break the smallest part of the Law constituted the
breaking of the *whole* of the Law.  the Law's purpose was to expose man's
sinful nature, revealing his inability ever save himself, and direct him to 
seek the mercy of God, who was the only one who could justify him.

Christ did fulfill the Law.  and in doing so, broke its chains on humanity.
all that is required is that we *trust Him alone* to forgive and save (just-
ify) us, and we are freed from the bondage of the Law.

one question that the legalists invariably miss (avoid? gloss over?) is that 
Abraham never had the Law.  His *faith* was counted to him as righteousness!
this is where Judaism (or for that matter, *any* religion based upon the
works of men, for their justification) and Christianity come into conflict.  
It's not that the Law is "bad", but Christianity points to faith in Christ
as our means of justification, not to the Law.

>But the Jewish
>religion stands in a peculiar relationship to the Christian:  unless you go
>down the path of Marcion 
>you find that the Jewish religion is not so much wrong as surpassed.

which was the whole point of Christ's sacrifice.  however, Christ is a
stumbling block to the Jews because they do not wish to believe that the
Messiah has already come.  it's understandable that the Jews would not
wish to believe that Jesus was the Messiah, since if they acknowledged
even the possibility, then they have to answer some very difficult questions
about why He was put to death.

>  I hope
>that somehow, the Lord will continue to redeem His special people.  

He will.  God made a promise (covenant) to the Jewish people that they were
his *chosen* people.  they were to be His Kingdom of Priests to the rest
of the world.  just because the Jews have left God (once again) does not
mean that God has renounced His promise to them, or that He's finished with
the nation of Israel.

---
--
Tim	  |	ARPA:  timh@ide.com
Hoogasian |	UUCP:  sun!ide!timh	 	(415) 543-0900 
===============================================================================
#define DISCLAIMER "Are you nuts?  I don't represent anyone, let alone myself!"

YZKCU@cunyvm.bitnet (Yaakov Kayman) (10/22/90)

In article <Oct.18.03.25.37.1990.1362@athos.rutgers.edu>, timh@ide.com (Tim
Hoogasian) says:
>
...
>actually, a position of anti-Semetism is impossible for a *Christian*.  the
>thrust of Christianity was not that Judaism was somehow perverse ...,
>but that the form of it
>taught and practiced by the rabbinical authorities had much more in
>common with legalism (practicing the *letter* of the Law, while lacking
>the *spirit* of the Law) than with the Law which God had presented them.
>anyway, the point is that Christians and Jews should not perceive themselves
>as at odds on what the Law says, since Christianity did not "abolish" the
>Law, but rather superceeded it.
...
>C_____ did fulfill the Law.
...
>Abraham never had the Law.  His *faith* was counted to him as righteousness!
>... C_____ is a
>stumbling block to the Jews because they do not wish to believe that the
>Messiah has already come.  it's understandable that the Jews would not
>wish to believe that J____ was the Messiah, ....
...
...  just because the Jews have left God (once again) ....

A perverse, most obnoxious, and HIGHLY MISTAKEN person is what you are!
In the matters of the Jews and the Torah, you are COMPLETELY mistaken.

Your statements (and your mistaken conclusions) re the Jews should be
preceded by the phrase "According to Christian views." NONE of them
agree with Jewish views! None of them are supported by G-d's Torah,
which He gave ONLY to the Jews. None. Your claim that Jews ought not view
your religion as totally at odds, incompatible, and mutually exclusive
with Judaism is nothing short of ludicrous. Ditto, your claim that J____
observed the Law (meaning the Torah). Yet MORE ludicrous is your state-
ment that Abraham did not have the Law.

Impossible for a *Christian* to be anti-Semitic (or rather a Jew-hater,
to be accurate)? I suppose you'd consider the Spanish Inquisition,
an OFFICIAL INSTRUMENT OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH of the day to be
"philo-Semitic"? Feh! :-( :-( We Jews view Christians' unceasing efforts
to convert us as enmity, not love.

Or are you perhaps saying that a "true Christian" has never yet existed?
I should think your coreligionists would strongly disagree with that
contention, but that's their fight and yours, not mine or that of the
Jews.

Though we do accept sincere converts to Judaism, after very stringently
testing the sincerity of their motives, we have NO DESIRE WHATSOEVER to
induce anyone to become a Jew, NOR DO WE MAINTAIN, as so many Christians
so very obnoxiously do about non-Christians, that any righteous non-Jew
(whose righteousness is defined in terms of observance of the Seven
Noachide Commandments G-d gave to the Nations of the World) does auto-
matically not have a share in the World to Come by virtue of not being
a Jew! To Jews, such a view would be and is patent nonsense. ALL the
righteous DO have a share in the World to Come.

The only way one could accept J____ as either a messiah or divine in some
way is by accepting the Christian "New" (in JEWISH eyes!) Testament.
JEWS DO *NOT* ACCEPT IT, and never will. The Torah does not even come
CLOSE to alluding to J____ as either a messiah, as a prophet or as in any
way divine. It's only often-deliberate mistranslation and/or misinterpre-
tation of the Torah by Christians that leads them to this conclusion.

I fully respect your right to practice your faith, but spare me the
garbage about the Jews. It only shows your ignorance and possibly hatred
of Jews.

I'd be far happier publicly presenting examples in this forum than its
mainly-Christian readership would be to see those examples. I've been a
student of Torah - in its original Hebrew (in which I am fluent) and
Aramaic - for close to forty years. I have no interest at all in your
religion other than in those areas (as above) which deal with my people,
the Jews, and with mistranslating/misinterpreting the Torah, which is
exclusively OUR inheritance, and in the knowledge of which WE, and not
any other people, have primacy.

>--
>Tim
>Hoogasian

To mutual respect, which is now sadly lacking,

Yaakov K., Orthodox Jew
--------
Yaakov Kayman      (212) 903-3666       City University of New York

BITNET:   YZKCU@CUNYVM        "Lucky is the shepherd, and lucky his flock
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