daved@westford.ccur.com (508-392-2990) (09/26/90)
[I responded to some comments about universalism that there seems unambiguous Biblical evidence for judgement, citing the Rich Man and Lazarus, the saying about the narrow door, references to Gehenna, and I Thes 1:5ff. --clh] I'd like to ramble on a bit longer. One tack to take, while maintaining Biblical authority, is to question whether any given passage, for instance, I Thess. 1:5, actually rules out what Origen and Gregory of Nyssa called "the restoration of all things." Regarding I Thess. 1:5ff: what exactly does 'eternal destruction' mean? What can it mean? Suppose I attempt to destroy a piece of paper; after it's burnt, can I continue burning it? Not infinitely! If it's a metaphor, of what is it a metaphor? I can raise similar objections to 'the lake of fire, which is the second death' ; to none of these objections do I know of an answer that seems adequate. It won't be too useful of course, just to try to claim that Paul contradicts himself. The question is better phrased, "does one have Scriptural warrant for ruling out this doctrine? (the apocatastatis)" If not, then one still has the option, within orthodoxy, it seems to me. In any case, I think it essential to affirm a real judgement. OFM concludes, stating that making a scriptural case for universalism would be difficult, > The door to salvation may be narrow, but God will eventually find a > way to get everyone through it... However making a case for this > would require some *very* fancy exegesis. Agreed. Perhaps the task is impossible, at some point. But this impossibilty has not be proved to me in any detailed way, so I see it as an open question ('an active research problem'). What about a doctrine in this line that may be considered one step less heretical, that of annihilationism? Do any of the foregoing observations apply? Can a form of this be maintained in regard of the authority of Scripture? Do any contemporary groups hold such a teaching? Dave Davis Broken pipes, broken tools, These are my opinions alone. people bending broken rules daved@westford.ccur.com Hound dog howlin', bullfrog croakin' {harvard,uunet,petsd}!masscomp!daved Everything is broken (B. Dylan) [By the way, I think my original reference was wrong. "eternal destruction" is in II Thes 1:5ff, not I Thes. 1:5ff. The only group that I know adopts annihilationism officially is the Seventh Day Adventists. But I don't claim knowledge of every groups's beliefs. I see some problems with it, but probably no more than other attempts to fit a consistent apocalyptic viewpoint to the Biblical evidence. As to "eternal destruction", I guess I had seen it as indicating destruction on the eternal level rather than the earthly level. The phrase "eternal life" means more than just life that never ends. It is life of a different kind, that occurs in an eternal frame of reference rather than an earthly one. If we managed to extend human life to the point where someone would never die, that would not be eternal life as the term is used in the Bible. Thus it seems reasonable to think that eternal destruction means final destruction, i.e. destruction that occurs on this eternal level, as opposed to destruction on the earthly level, which isn't final. --clh]
gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) (10/19/90)
>The only group that I know adopts annihilationism officially is the >Seventh Day Adventists. But I don't claim knowledge of every groups's >beliefs. I see some problems with it, but probably no more than other >attempts to fit a consistent apocalyptic viewpoint to the Biblical >evidence. OFM, there is at least one other group who also holds to annihilationism: Jehovah's Witnesses. Wonder if there are others? What about the Worldwide Church of God? Peace, Gene
parker@cs-sun-fsc.cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Jim Parker) (10/22/90)
In article <Oct.19.04.22.10.1990.12845@paul.rutgers.edu> gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) writes: >>The only group that I know adopts annihilationism officially is the >>Seventh Day Adventists. But I don't claim knowledge of every groups's >>beliefs. > >OFM, there is at least one other group who also holds to >annihilationism: Jehovah's Witnesses. Wonder if there are others? >What about the Worldwide Church of God? > Yes, they do, if by 'annihilationism' you mean the belief that instead of being tortured for eternity, the evil and unfaithful of the world will simply die forever. The Church of God (7th Day) also believes this - these are all Sabbath churches. Other groups do also, and many individuals belonging to other churches. (I do too). Peace Jim Parker