timh@ide.com (Tim Hoogasian) (10/22/90)
> John Graves writes: > >I believe that their are and have been many Christs since Christ is described (prophesied) to be the "Annointed One", (the Messiah (Savior)) this doesn't wash. remember that the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament, to Christians) was given to the Jews. they were (are) waiting for a (that's SINGULAR) Savior to set them free. you'd have a really hard time suggesting to the Jews that there are (and have been) multiple "Saviors" in the world. you've substituted a completely new definition of your *own* for the Messiah. well now, if it's fine for anyone to qualifiy for this position, then just show me where i can sign up! your other suggestion that you have rejected Paul's Gospel also doesn't wash, since we know that John and Peter (described as "pillars of the Church", and who would seem to qualify as being "ok" by your standards) extended to Paul the "right hand" of the fellowship. i.e., they checked him out, and gave him their own "seal of approval". since John and Peter knew Jesus PERSONALLY, i think that's a pretty strong endorsement of someone you don't think is worth listening to. it seems pretty convenient to be able to just "pick and choose" what you want to believe out of the Word, John. if i read a mathematics textbook and decide to reject that 2+2=4, because i don't like the author of the text, haven't i checked my mind at the door? -- Tim | ARPA: timh@ide.com Hoogasian | UUCP: sun!ide!timh (415) 543-0900 =============================================================================== #define DISCLAIMER "Are you nuts? I don't represent anyone, let alone myself!"
John_Graves@cellbio.duke.edu (John UU Graves) (10/25/90)
timh@ide.com (Tim Hoogasian) writes > John Graves writes: > >I believe that their are and have been many Christs Tim Hoogasian) writes since Christ is described (prophesied) to be the "Annointed One", (the Messiah (Savior)) this doesn't wash. remember that the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament, to Christians) was given to the Jews. they were (are) waiting for a (that's SINGULAR) Savior to set them free. you'd have a really hard time suggesting to the Jews that there are (and have been) multiple "Saviors" in the world. you've substituted a completely new definition of your *own* for the Messiah. well now, if it's fine for anyone to qualifiy for this position, then just show me where i can sign up! And John Graves replies: If you feel that you are a prophet please do sign up. In fact, you probably already have. Now this is not meant to be a flame. Theodore Parker, a Unitarian minister, said in 1841, that "Wise men we have had since and good men, but this Galilean youth strode before the world and much of divinity was in him. But still, was he not our brother? The son of man as we are, the son of God like ourselves. His excellence, was it not human excellence,his wisdom, love, piety, sweet and celestial as they were, are they not what we also may attain?" This is the Unitarian view of Jesus. He was 100% human and his example of a life of service and integrity is not beyond the reach of nay human being. Quoting from Arvid Straube, UU Minister in Durham, NC: Now there are two words used in the New Testament to describe Jesus. One is Hebrew and that is the word "messiah." This is one, and the other is Greek, and that is "christos." The Hebrew word suggests a human being--annointed--they both mean annointed one, both these words. Annointed by God to bring about the political salvation of the people of Israel. The best Greek equivalent--the NT was written in Greek--was "christos," which also means annointed one, but with a definite connotation of divinity, so when that translation occurred, we already have the beginnings of the doctrine of the divinity of Jesus. But it is doubtful whether that earliest gospel sees Jesus that way at all. You see the word Christ refers to that divinity. It's not Jesus's last name,and I'm amazed by how many educated people think that. Jesus was a human teacher. What he taught was the reign of God here and now in a world full of apocalyptic expectation, of political intrigue, a people who were putting their lives aside for some divine political event, the return of the Messiah. Jesus was saying, look around you. The kingdom of God, the reign of God, is here now. All you have to do is live, enjoy, love, treat each other with respect. We make it now, our decisions now, our actions now, we make the reign of God now. And I would add that the people were expecting Moses or Elijah, both of whom were referred to as annointed by God, as were the kings of Israel. The High Priests were also annointed. But for me, the real question is not whether Jesus was the only annointed one, the only Christos, but whether his message, his life, were important, or were they just window dressing for a sacrificial lamb. If Jesus was part of the Triune God, then I would hope that God has learned something about the fragility of human life and spirit in the face of suffering and would not punish those of us who fail to live up to high standards. God sends his love. Let's send ours. John Graves Unitarian Universalism Duke Divinity An inclusive church disavows where you don't check anything I say! your mind at the door!