ASC105@psuvm.psu.edu (11/06/90)
It seems as if though many, naturally, are saying things unsupported by
the bible (Word of God). What I mean is this: When a pastor teaches a
doctrine opposing what the bible says, the people listening will believe
the pastor rather than the bible.
This is the reason that the lives of the Christians will lack signs,
wonders, and miracles. The bible says that signs, wonders and miracles
will follow up WHEN the Word of God is preached... NOT church or
denominational doctrine. See the last chapter of Mark.
I was saved in a denominational church, but I had to come out....
They taught the teachings of this particular denomination instead of
the word of God. These were just the traditions of men,--made up.
It seems like too many people are trying to make the Bible fit the
into the natural world. It should be the other way around. Miracles
don't happen as a result of discrediting the bible.
For example, if a person gets sick and dies of cancer, many say,
"it's the will of God." But that's opposite of what the bible says.
The bible says that Jesus Christ carried out sickness so that we don't
have to carry it ourselves. I know this for a fact, so when I get sick,
I just say "Satan, you don't put that on me! Sickness, Get off me in
the name of JESUS!"--and it goes. It had to go because I knew that
as a believer in Christ this was part of God's redemptive plan.
In Jesus's Name,
Allen S. Cheung
(JESUS IS LORD)edb@sequoia.execu.com (Ed Barker) (11/08/90)
In article <Nov.5.22.20.43.1990.21794@athos.rutgers.edu>, ASC105@psuvm.psu.edu writes: > For example, if a person gets sick and dies of cancer, many say, > "it's the will of God." But that's opposite of what the bible says. > The bible says that Jesus Christ carried out sickness so that we don't > have to carry it ourselves. But the writer of Hebrews says "It is appointed unto man once to die..." So it does not matter how many times God heals any of us of various diseases; there will be one sickness that we will not be healed from. Please understand, brother, I do not say this to cast doubt on the occurance of miracles today! I KNOW they are real. But I believe that we need a solid understanding as to exactly what the purpose of miracles is. For this I go to the gospel of John, where in chapter 21 he says that there were many other miracles done by Jesus which were not recorded in his gospel, but that "these were written that you might believe, and that in believing, you might find life in His name." Now observe that in the first 12 chapters of John 7 miracles are reported, and that in every case, John shows us that each miracle has a deeper spiritual significance. The feeding of the 5000 illustrates that it is Jesus who gives us spiritual food which, when we seek it with at least as much earnestnest as we seek bread and meat, will cause us to experience that full life which only He can give. The healing of the blind man shows that Jesus came to remove the spiritual blindness which all of us are victums of. And the resurrection of Lazarus was done to show us clearly that only in Jesus can we who are dead in our sins be raised to live with him forever. In short, miracles are a sign, intended to cause us to believe in God and put our complete trust in him. I remember 20 years or so ago an account in a secular newspaper about a woman who was dying of cancer, who was miraculously healed and later appeared in a worship service to testify to her healing. The secular article goes on to say that one month later this woman was dead. As if that should prove that the "miracle" was a fake. To which I respond, absolutely no it was not a fake. God rose that woman from her death bed for a sign to her local church, to strengthen the faith of the believers there. Once this purpose had been accomplished, then God called this dear sister home. To God be all glory and praise. Ed Barker Austin, Texas
gt1104c@prism.gatech.edu (SILVERT,STANLEY DAVID JR) (11/08/90)
In article <Nov.5.22.20.43.1990.21794@athos.rutgers.edu> ASC105@psuvm.psu.edu writes: > > This is the reason that the lives of the Christians will lack signs, >wonders, and miracles. The bible says that signs, wonders and miracles >will follow up WHEN the Word of God is preached... NOT church or >denominational doctrine. See the last chapter of Mark. If you look at the footnote that most bibles include before the 9th verse of the last chapter (16) of Mark you will see that most early manuscripts stop at verse 8. Therefore, your statement about wonders and miracles is questionalble at best because the verses you refer to probably should not be there. > It seems like too many people are trying to make the Bible fit the >into the natural world. It should be the other way around. Miracles >don't happen as a result of discrediting the bible. This is true, but discrediting the Bible is not my goal. Understanding it is. To show you how understanding the Bible better can keep us out of trouble I go back to Mark 16:9-20 where it says that believers will pick up snakes with their hands and drink deadly poison without being hurt. From the understanding that these verses probably don't belong in the Bible we can conclude that drinking poison is not such a good idea no matter how strong our faith is. Unfortunately, a lack of scriptural knowlege of this particular passage has led directly to the deaths of persons attending snake-handling churches in the mountains of eastern Kentucky and Tennessee. -- Stan Silvert Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 uucp: ...!{allegra,amd,hplabs,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!prism!gt1104c ARPA: gt1104c@prism.gatech.edu
garyh@crash.cts.com (Gary Hipp) (11/08/90)
In article <Nov.5.22.20.43.1990.21794@athos.rutgers.edu> ASC105@psuvm.psu.edu writes: >The bible says that Jesus Christ carried out sickness so that we don't >have to carry it ourselves. I know this for a fact, so when I get sick, >I just say "Satan, you don't put that on me! Sickness, Get off me in >the name of JESUS!"--and it goes. It had to go because I knew that >as a believer in Christ this was part of God's redemptive plan. > Where does the Bible say that Jesus carried out sickness so that we don't have to carry it ourselves? If you are going to tell me, "that by His stripes we are healed" all verses related to this have to do with salvation, not healing of the body. I won't deny miracles, but I can't deny suffering either. "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body (which is the church) in filling up that which is lacking in Christ's afflictions."--Col.1:24 Christ did not rid the world of suffering. Suffering is part of the process of sanctification. gary hipp
wagner@karazm.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) (11/09/90)
In article <Nov.5.22.20.43.1990.21794@athos.rutgers.edu> ASC105@psuvm.psu.edu writes: > > This is the reason that the lives of the Christians will lack signs, >wonders, and miracles. The bible says that signs, wonders and miracles >will follow up WHEN the Word of God is preached... NOT church or >denominational doctrine. See the last chapter of Mark. > > In Jesus's Name, > Allen S. Cheung > (JESUS IS LORD) No Christian should question his faith or doubt his salvation simply because he does not see 'signs, wonders, and miracles.' God has always used these for a special purpose, to reveal his purpose and will to his believers. In Mark 16 we read [in a passage whose authenticity is questioned by some] that Jesus appeared to his remaining eleven chosen apostles and said: "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, *and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.* I believe that the signs promised by Jesus were promised to the apostles, to help them in establishing his church, both among the Jews and among the Gentiles -- who in particular had no knowledge of the Scriptures. In particular one can see that in some instances, signs were given to show the apostles that they were doing the right thing in preaching the Gospel to the Gentiles, and not just to the Jews -- see in particulat Acts 10:44-48. Other signs were given to certify the apostles and evangelists to their audience. However Jesus adamantly refused to perform signs on demand, in order to prove himself. He said "They have Moses and the Prophets" , in other words, the Scriptures. He also told Thomas, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." My point is that we should rely on the Scriptures for revelation, and not look signs to buttress our faith. In Daniel 9:24 the work of the Messiah to come is described: "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for you people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, *to seal up vision and prophecy* and to anoint the most holy. While this particular vision is one of the more difficult passages in the Bible, I certainly understand it to mean that there was an end to 'vision and prophecy' in connection with Christ's work here on earth. As the vision appears to end with the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD., we might guess that "vision and prophecy" was brought to an end about that time -- or we might say it ended with the writing of the last book of the New Testament. Doctrine itself is not a bad thing, according to Scripture. In Acts 3:42 we read that the early christians "devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching [some translations read 'doctrine' here]. In 2 Tim 4:3 Paul warns Timothy: "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine." In Titus 1:9 we read that an 'overseer' or 'bishop' must "hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it." So 'sound doctrine' which is true, drawn from the Scriptures, is very much endorsed by Scripture. Those who despise 'doctrine' as if it were a man made thing invented by the churches, are actually opposed to Scripture. To say, as I have heard a good number of charismatics say, that 'we don't have any doctrine in our church, just the Bible' is a contradiction in terms. Doctrine is whatever you teach. Of course false doctrine is quite another matter, and is heartily condemned in Scripture. By virtue of my membership in a Lutheran Church (the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, to be specific) I confess that I believe that the Apostle's Creed, the Nicene Creed, the Athanasian Creed, and the Lutheran Confessions contained in the Book of Concord, namely The (unaltered) Augsburg Confession The Apology to the Augsburg Confession The Smalcald Articles Melancthon's Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope Luther's Small and Large Catechism and The Formula of Concord are all correct interpretation of Scripure. They are true 'doctrine', drawn from the Scriptures. I will conclude with a brief note. The most important miracle of all, to be sought more than any other, is the miracle of conversion. For in conversion we see nothing less than the dead brought to life, by the power of the gospel. As we read in Ephesians chapter 2, as unbelievers we were 'dead in our transgressions and sins,' but are now 'made alive in Christ.' And we read in Revelation 20: "This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death [hell] has no power over them, but they will be priests of God [1 Peter 2:5] and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years." May God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit be with you all. Amen. David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran "The world is very evil, The times are waxing late; Be sober and keep vigil, The Judge is at the gate; The Judge that comes in mercy, The Judge that comes with might, To Terminate the evil, To diadem the right. O home of fadeless spendor, Of flow'rs that bear no thorn, Where they shall dwell as children Who here as exiles mourn. Midst pow'r that knows no limit, Where knowledge has no bound, The beatific vision Shall glad the saints around. O sweet and blessed country, The home of God'e elect! O sweet and blessed country That eager hearts expect! Jesus, in mercy bring us To that dear land of rest, Who art, with God the Father And Spirit, ever blest. --selected verses from "Hora novissima", by Bernard of Morlas, c. 1140. My opinions and beliefs on this matter are disclaimed by The University of Houston.
jow@pacbell.com (Jeff Westman) (11/09/90)
In article <Nov.5.22.20.43.1990.21794@athos.rutgers.edu> ASC105@psuvm.psu.edu writes: | It seems as if though many, naturally, are saying things unsupported by | the bible (Word of God). What I mean is this: When a pastor teaches a | doctrine opposing what the bible says, the people listening will believe | the pastor rather than the bible. This is true. We should be more like the Bereans, who DAILY sought the Scriptures to "see if these things were true." | It seems like too many people are trying to make the Bible fit the | into the natural world. It should be the other way around. Ditto again! | For example, if a person gets sick and dies of cancer, many say, | "it's the will of God." But that's opposite of what the bible says. | The bible says that Jesus Christ carried out sickness so that we don't | have to carry it ourselves. I know this for a fact, so when I get sick, | I just say "Satan, you don't put that on me! Sickness, Get off me in | the name of JESUS!"--and it goes. It had to go because I knew that | as a believer in Christ this was part of God's redemptive plan. WHOA!!! God uses sickness as part of His what?! Sickness is the result of original sin. God never intended for mankind to be vulnerable to illness, much less death. But man sinned. There are so many ewxamples in Scripture about illness. The prime example, perhaps, is when Paul had the "thorn" in his side. A pharisee among pharsee, Jew among Jews, he much to boast about; so God ***ALLOWED*** this "thorn" (we don't really know what he had) that **GOD** may be glorified through Pauls humility. What about the boy who Jesus healed (oh, how I wish I had that Bible with me today!!). The onlookers asked if it was the parents fault (their sin) that caused this, and Jesus said, "no, it is that God may be glorified." Some people even go so far as to say that you get sick because there is sin in your life. While the Bible DOES talk about CONTINUING, WILLFUL sin will bring certain sickness (1 Cor 11, Rev 2), and even death, this does not mean that God does not allow sickness for His name's sake. Although I have not personally been bed-ridden or critically ill, I have fallen prey to certain flues and colds that happened when I worked too much and ignored my family. God used THIS circumstance to reorganize my priorities. | In Jesus's Name, | Allen S. Cheung | (JESUS IS LORD) Jesus IS Lord -- always was -- always will be!! :-) -- Jeff