gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) (10/22/90)
I recently began reading John F. MacArthur's book _The Gospel According to Jesus_. In there, I found the following on page 30. "James M. Boice, in his book, "Christ's Call to Discipleship", writes with insight about the salvation/discipleship dichotomy, which he frankly describes as "defective theology": "This theology separates faith from discipleship and grace from obedience. It teaches that Jesus can be received as one's Savior without being received as one's Lord. "This is a common defect in times of prosperity. In days of hardship, particularly persecution, those who are in the process of becoming Christians count the cost of discipleship carefully before taking up the cross of the Nasarene. Preachers do not beguile them with false promises of an easy life or indulgence of sins. But in good times, the cost does not seem so high, and people take the name of Christ without undergoing the radical transformation of life that true conversion implies. "The call to Calvary must be recognized for what it is: a call to discipleship under the lordship of Jesus Christ. To respond to that call is to become a believer. Anything less is simply unbelief." At this point MacArthur has a footnote that says, "Jesus' Great Commission in Matthew 28:18-20 does not talk about making believers in distinction to disciples. "Make disciples...baptizing them" implies that every new believer is a disciple, for all Christians are to be baptized (Acts 2:38), not just those who go on to some deeper level of commitment." I wondered how others see this. Do you believe that we only need to accept Jesus as Savior and that at some future point we accept His Lordship? Do you see it as necessary to count all the costs that every will be required to be a disciple before you can be saved? What if you don't know all the costs at that point in time--are not saved? Is there a difference in the costs of discipleship between prosperity and persecution that affects the presentation of the Gospel? What is the Gospel that we are to preach and teach? For His glory, Gene Gross
lshaw@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (logan shaw) (10/25/90)
In article <Oct.22.02.26.36.1990.20811@athos.rutgers.edu> gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) writes: >I recently began reading John F. MacArthur's book _The Gospel According >to Jesus_. In there, I found the following on page 30. > >"James M. Boice, in his book, "Christ's Call to Discipleship", writes >with insight about the salvation/discipleship dichotomy, which he >frankly describes as "defective theology": > >"The call to Calvary must be recognized for what it is: a call to >discipleship under the lordship of Jesus Christ. To respond to that >call is to become a believer. Anything less is simply unbelief." First of all, whenever a question like this comes up, I like to mention that most of the answers are in Romans. Read it carefully and prayerfully and it will clear alot of this topic up. >I wondered how others see this. Do you believe that we only need to >accept Jesus as Savior and that at some future point we accept His >Lordship? That's rather debatable. I _don't_ think you can accept Christ as _only_ a means to salvation. It's not possible to knowingly accept only salvation intending not to follow God. BUT, it is possible to accept Him without knowing all the details of what it entails. (i.e. to think "God, I haven't read all the fine print, but I know I need You"). /* I'd quote a certain verse here, but I can't remember it -- something */ /* about not being able to fool God by only wanting salvation. */ > Do you see it as necessary to count all the costs that every >will be required to be a disciple before you can be saved? What if you >don't know all the costs at that point in time--are not saved? How can you count all the costs? You can't know exactly what following Christ will entail -- just that whatever it is, you'll do it. Besides, nobody can make Christ completely the Lord of their life; if they did, they wouldn't ever sin again (and we know that everybody sins). Basically, making Christ the Lord of your life is a daily struggle. It's not a part of being saved, since salvation is a gift. But it's foolishness not to do it. God won't stand for it if you're trying to intentionally rip him off, but if you just don't know to do it, or don't do it because you're human and you mess up, God can forgive you for that sin as he can for every other. If you think "get salvation" when you think "become Christian", then all is not well, but if you think "trust God (and therefore get salvation and follow Him)" when you think "become Christian", then you're on the right track. > Is there >a difference in the costs of discipleship between prosperity and >persecution that affects the presentation of the Gospel? What is the >Gospel that we are to preach and teach? I think the most important thing to do is to trust God. You should be willing to do anything necessary to follow God, whether that means giving up everything you own (either a little or a lot), or giving up your life or whatever. Just because you're prosperous doesn't mean you can't be a disciple of Christ, but you aren't guaranteed you will stay prosperous. :-) All of this doesn't mean we should be satisfied with getting people to the point of salvation and leaving them there. We should teach them that they have to continue growing as well. Well, there it is -- you asked my thoughts and now you've got them. What does everybody else think? >For His glory, > >Gene Gross But there's more to this life than living and dying,\ Logan Shaw More than just trying to make it through the day, \lshaw@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu More to this life, more than these eyes alone can see,\ Amiga 2000, C= 1084 And there's more than this life alone can be. \ GVP 40Q, 8-up!
hall@vice.ico.tek.com (Hal Lillywhite) (10/28/90)
In article <Oct.22.02.26.36.1990.20811@athos.rutgers.edu> gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) writes: >I recently began reading John F. MacArthur's book _The Gospel According >to Jesus_. In there, I found the following on page 30. >"James M. Boice, in his book, "Christ's Call to Discipleship", writes >with insight about the salvation/discipleship dichotomy, which he >frankly describes as "defective theology": > "This theology separates faith from discipleship and grace from > obedience. It teaches that Jesus can be received as one's Savior > without being received as one's Lord. ...(good stuff deleted for bandwith's sake) >"The call to Calvary must be recognized for what it is: a call to >discipleship under the lordship of Jesus Christ. To respond to that >call is to become a believer. Anything less is simply unbelief." >At this point MacArthur has a footnote that says, >"Jesus' Great Commission in Matthew 28:18-20 does not talk about making >believers in distinction to disciples. "Make disciples...baptizing >them" implies that every new believer is a disciple, for all Christians >are to be baptized (Acts 2:38), not just those who go on to some deeper >level of commitment." >I wondered how others see this. Do you believe that we only need to >accept Jesus as Savior and that at some future point we accept His >Lordship? Do you see it as necessary to count all the costs that every >will be required to be a disciple before you can be saved? What if you >don't know all the costs at that point in time--are not saved? Is there >a difference in the costs of discipleship between prosperity and >persecution that affects the presentation of the Gospel? What is the >Gospel that we are to preach and teach? Well, it sounds to me like this book is probably on the right track. The Gospel has been defined as the "good news that Christ has come in the flesh" (including of course his death and resurrection). Would this news not then include what he taught while on this earth? Surely we should apply his teachings in our lives. The sermon on the mount, probably the greatest sermon on good works ever given, is rather specific about the need to do more than say, "Lord, Lord." Many who do this will be told, "Depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Mat 7:21-23) If we hear his word and do not *do* it, we are building our house on the sand, not the rock. (Mat 7:24-27) We are required to build on the rock of Christ and to do so means following his teachings. I think some Christians misunderstand a lot of Paul's statements comparing grace and "works." In every case I can think of where Paul makes such a comparison he is talking about works of the Law of Moses. He is not denigrating love, honesty, almsgiving etc, in fact he praises these qualities. Rather the passages in question say that salvation is not by the Law of Moses but by the grace of Christ. The grace of Christ will be given to disciples, not those who pay lip service to him. It is only for those who *do* the will of his father in heaven. (Mat 7:21 again, emphasis mine) Too many people think "salvation by grace" means just leave it all up to Jesus. Rather I am convinced it means follow Jesus, do as he teaches and his grace will be given to us. In the words of the Book of Mormon he came to save us *from* our sins, not *in* our sins (emphasis mine). Through his grace we can be freed from our sins so that not only are we forgiven but we can avoid new sins. What about the person who doesn't know the entire cost at first? As Gene and I have discussed by email, "believe" in the New Testament usually means far more than an intellectual acceptance, it implies a committment. Sometimes I think we are expected to commit to discipleship and remain faithful even through unforseen difficulties. He never promised any lack of difficulties, only the strength to meet those difficulties to His satisfaction. If we fully commit ourselves to Him we can keep that committment which is what he requires. Yes, discipleship is required.
gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) (11/10/90)
In article <Oct.25.03.07.34.1990.29298@athos.rutgers.edu> lshaw@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (logan shaw) writes: Much of what Logan says I agree with. However, I notice that I did not make myself plain enough in one place, so let me try to amend my failure herein. I originally posted: >> Is there >>a difference in the costs of discipleship between prosperity and >>persecution that affects the presentation of the Gospel? What is the >>Gospel that we are to preach and teach? Logan responds: >I think the most important thing to do is to trust God. You should be >willing to do anything necessary to follow God, whether that means giving >up everything you own (either a little or a lot), or giving up your life >or whatever. Just because you're prosperous doesn't mean you can't be a >disciple of Christ, but you aren't guaranteed you will stay prosperous. :-) Logan, what I was actually making reference to was the economic conditions. In other words, what effect does persecution have on the preaching of the Gospel and the cost of salvation as compared to preaching of the Gospel and the cost of salvation during periods of prosperity and no persecution? Is there a tendency to preach a "cheap" grace when things are going smoothly? I'm not concerned with whether or not a saint is wealthy. Praise God for wealthy saints who understand the source of their wealth. Wealth does not stop one from being a disciple -- love of that wealth will. I hope this makes clearer what I was talking about. If not, hit me with a 2x4 and wake me up. ;-) >All of this doesn't mean we should be satisfied with getting people to >the point of salvation and leaving them there. We should teach them >that they have to continue growing as well. Amen!! Preach on brother! Standing on the Solid Rock, Gene Gross