duncant@mbunix.mitre.org (Thomson) (10/25/90)
I don't know if you'll want to discuss this on your group, but I am really interested in how Christians will answer this question, so here goes... I read a story in the news yesterday about the killing of a politician and his family in Lebanon. Gunmen came into his house, and shot him a few times in the head and stomach. His children, age 6 and 10 (Ithink), ran screaming to their mother. The gunmen pursued them, and shot the mother while they clung to her. They then shot both of the children. A third child, an infant, escaped death because the killers did not know she was there. My question is this: How can events such as these be reconciled with the christian notion of a god who is both omnipotent and benevolent? It seems to me impossible to accept that an all-powerful god could allow a child to be murdered in such a brutal way. If any person had the power to prevent such an atrocity, and failed to act, in my opinion such a person would be completely dispicable. Is there an answer? ("The Lord Works in Mysterious Ways" does not hack it with me.) -- (Please excuse the typos and garbage caused by line noise.)
uriel@oak.circa.ufl.edu (Scott Whitmore) (10/28/90)
In article <Oct.25.02.58.11.1990.28720@athos.rutgers.edu>, duncant@mbunix.mitre.org (Thomson) writes: >I don't know if you'll want to discuss this on your group, but I am really >interested in how Christians will answer this question, so here goes... I can only hope I don't let you down. >[bloodbath story deleted] >My question is this: How can events such as these be reconciled with >the christian notion of a god who is both omnipotent and benevolent? >It seems to me impossible to accept that an all-powerful god could allow >a child to be murdered in such a brutal way. If any person had the power >to prevent such an atrocity, and failed to act, in my opinion such a person >would be completely dispicable. > This is a question that I have seen very few Christians answer satisfactorily. I see it this way: the world is an evil place, period; the only thing that could change that is God coming down and wiping out ALL evil (not just "brutal" events). The reason why God hasn't done that is because if He did, when evil was wiped out, so all of us would be wiped out too... or at least all of us who had not as of yet come to know Him and be saved. God would like to rescue all the rescueable people before blasting everyone else to ashes like they deserve. In the meantime, God can use tragedy and pain to do good for people if they choose to let Him do so... reading a bloodbath story could potentially lead you to understand the evil nature of the world and strengthen your resolve to oppose it, or it could lead you to gain greater compassion toward those who are involved in tragedy. Or it could cause you to turn to Him directly to avoid being a casualty of evil. And what about the victims of that bloodbath? Well, to be blunt, everyone has to die sometime, somehow. >Is there an answer? ("The Lord Works in Mysterious Ways" does not hack it >with me.) > Nor with me. Saying "It's God's will that these people were murdered!" is a gross misrepresentation. Sure, God allows people to suffer loss... and if you, being human, can feel for those victims, then how much more does He feel for them, His children?... but better they should suffer such temporal loss than suffer a swift and sure eternal loss. I hope that makes some sense... Scott ========================================================================== Scott Whitmore | Me? Represent the University of Florida? Ha! uriel@maple.circa.ufl.edu | "Believe the unbelievable; 24-510 Tolbert Hall | Come be a fool as well." University of Florida | -- Michael Card Gainesville,FL 32612 | "God's Own Fool" ==========================================================================
ldh@bessel.eedsp.gatech.edu (Lonnie D Harvel) (10/28/90)
In article <Oct.25.02.58.11.1990.28720@athos.rutgers.edu>, duncant@mbunix.mitre.org (Thomson) writes: |>I don't know if you'll want to discuss this on your group, but I am really |>interested in how Christians will answer this question, so here goes... |> |> Horrible act omitted... |> |>My question is this: How can events such as these be reconciled with |>the christian notion of a god who is both omnipotent and benevolent? |> |>It seems to me impossible to accept that an all-powerful god could allow |>a child to be murdered in such a brutal way. If any person had the power |>to prevent such an atrocity, and failed to act, in my opinion such a person |>would be completely dispicable. |> |>Is there an answer? ("The Lord Works in Mysterious Ways" does not hack it |>with me.) |> "The Lord Works in Mysterious Ways" , doesn't hack it for me either. Free will does, however. God gave man dominion over the earth and all that is within it. If we blow it to hades and back, I do not believe he will intervene directly. I have always felt that God interacts through his followers, and the Holy Spirit. It seems that the great miracles of the bible have been performed by people enacting the will of God. Even to the point that God became Man himself, in order to provide a living sacrifice for our sins. Some would say that this proves that it is men and not God who are great, but these people have been filled with the power of God and/or the Holy Spirit, and they claim that it is God and not them, I believe them. There are still miracles, God still interacts, man is just sophisticated enough not to be impressed. As for the atrocity of which you spoke, it was commited by men, men who do not follow God in my opinion, regardless of what they claim. God asks that we follow him, asks that we accept his Grace, asks that we accept his power, he does not force. God has granted men the right to choose, He is witholding judgement until the end. These are my opinions and I ask forgiveness for oversimplification. Yours in Christ Lonnie ---------------------------------------------------------------- The comments and spelling herein are mine and nobody else lays claim to them. ================================================================ Lonnie D. Harvel | ldh@bessel.eedsp.gatech.edu School of Electrical Engineering | Georgia Institue of Technology | "quisque suis patimur manis" Atlanta, GA 30332-0250 | Virgil
mmoore@ub.d.umn.edu (Michelle Moore) (10/28/90)
duncant@mbunix.mitre.org (Thomson) writes: >I don't know if you'll want to discuss this on your group, but I am really >interested in how Christians will answer this question, so here goes... > (line's telling of murder of Lebanese family deleted) > >My question is this: How can events such as these be reconciled with >the christian notion of a god who is both omnipotent and benevolent? > >It seems to me impossible to accept that an all-powerful god could allow >a child to be murdered in such a brutal way. If any person had the power >to prevent such an atrocity, and failed to act, in my opinion such a person >would be completely dispicable. > >Is there an answer? ("The Lord Works in Mysterious Ways" does not hack it >with me.) i also have a hard time trusting in "the Lord works in mysterious ways" and i am a Christian! i am asked this question and others much like it frequently (heck! i've asked it myself!), and i don't really have an "answer", but i do have an idea (i'm sorta new at this Christian business so if any of you "old timers" out there want to correct me i wouldn't mind): i recently read an excellent book on the subject of spiritual warfare called "This Present Darkness" (the title comes from Ephesians). while reading, this question surfaced to my mind again and again. and the only answer that i have is that God doesn't have the power to protect you unless you let Him, unless you invite him to take control of your life. that doesn't mean that Christians are free from evil. actually, quite the opposite. but a Christian has faith that a life with the Everlasting is worth it. at least i do. paghty! (peace and good health to you :-) -- Jesus loves me, Yup yup yup - don't know why... Michelle "Shelly" "Mic" "Mickey" "Mickster" "Micaroonie" Moore
hall@vice.ico.tek.com (Hal Lillywhite) (10/29/90)
[This is a response to a question from duncant, who described a multiple killing, and asked how God could permit this. --clh] Well, this may be another of those "Your God can't exist if he allows this" shots but I'll bite anyway. Actually for one who believes in an afterlife, the this is not a great problem. The victims are still living in a different state, they just arrived there a bit sooner than they expected to. We're all going to die anyway, it's just a question of when. Our lack of knowledge is in the area of why one person lives 100 years on this earth while another is taken while very young. I could speculate on some possible reasons but I certainly claim no knowledge of any proposed reasons applied to specific individuals. In fact given our tendency to gossip I suspect God deliberately witholds knowledge of why he treats one person one way and somebody else differently. After a while in eternity it probably won't make much difference if we lived a few more years on earth, or even if those years were spent in a mansion or a concentration camp. What will matter is what we learned from our experiences. Probably much of the experience we are given is to help us learn. Different people get different experience because they need to learn different things. To me the real tragedy of this event is not the deaths but the fact that someone could be vicious enough to cause those deaths. They are probably in a living hell already.
carsup@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Fisher Library support) (10/29/90)
Dear A.N.Atheist, Injustice in the world of the type you describe is terrible. God is *NOT* insensitive to this, and is in fact realy pissed off by the evil within us, but he also realy cares. Suffering within the world is caused by what we do and not by what God wants us to do. God chooses to allow us to do evil because he has given us free will. We have chosen on the whole to stuff up the person next to us and all our actions, although not as extreme as the one you describe, reflect this. It is not God that pulls the trigger and kills the children, it is our uncaring selves. God has shown us love in the sacrifice of his son Christ on our behalf. You may feel this is irrelevant or untrue, however there is no greater display of selflessness and self-sacrifice than Christ's death on the cross for us. This sacrifice was made so that it would be an example for us of what God's love is. We naturaly hate God because he is good and we are evil. You may not agree that we would all react in the same murderous way in the situation described, but you have not experienced the extent that we will go to when we feel threatened or in need. The sacrifice of Christ changes us so that we love our enemies and do good to those who would kill us. This is what free will is all about, is to be able to transcend our human natures through God who works in us . It was never God who pulled the trigger, but ourselves. Yours in CHRIST'S love matt. (only typed by james, and fisher library doesn't even know about it). /-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\ \ / / yo' got it all wrong!. Muddy Waters invented electricity! - Crossroads \ \ / / / Jim Uther - Email 8841060@cs.su.OZ.AU - phone 5507277 \ \_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/
oracle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Brian T. Coughlin) (10/29/90)
Re: Thomson In article <Oct.25.02.58.11.1990.28720@athos.rutgers.edu> duncant@mbunix.mitre.org (Thomson) writes: >I read a story in the news yesterday about the killing of a politician >and his family in Lebanon. [description of massacre of man and family omitted for space] >My question is this: How can events such as these be reconciled with >the christian notion of a god who is both omnipotent and benevolent? >It seems to me impossible to accept that an all-powerful god could allow >a child to be murdered in such a brutal way. If any person had the power >to prevent such an atrocity, and failed to act, in my opinion such a person >would be completely dispicable. >Is there an answer? ("The Lord Works in Mysterious Ways" does not hack it >with me.) Dear Thomson, My most honest answer is, "No, there ISN'T an answer." There comes a point where faith just can't be tied to worldly affairs. Even if I were ABLE to give good reason for God's choice in this matter, it would not promote your belief in God any more than any other statement would. Forgive me if that sounds weird; maybe I can try to explain. Belief in God is a very un-worldly thing; I, personally, am quite unclear as to HOW someone gets the gift of faith (save that God had SOMETHING to do with it)... but I *do* know that faith is not simply a logical conclusion arrived at by processing facts. The jump to faith, ultimately, has NOTHING to do with logic... or worldly events... at all. This statement might also sound weird... but it is quite impossible to have faith in God without consciously deciding to believe in Him. Circular, admittedly, but true in a very real sense. You cannot just wait around and expect an outside force (God, the world, whatever) to MAKE you believe, or MAKE you WANT to believe, in God. It just won't happen. In order to believe, you have to just jump in; you have to resolve yourself to just believing, despite ALL of your intellectual objections. Believe me, theists also have intellectual trouble with God... at LEAST as much as atheists and agnostics... and maybe MORE so, since the option of "ignoring" God isn't open to them. The only difference between the intellectual "God-struggle" of non-theists and theists is that theists don't let intellectual hardships throw them. I honestly don't mean for the above to sound harsh (my sincere apologies if it did!); I *did* want to make clear that there is NO SUCH THING as "passive" faith. Faith won't get up and walk to you. You have to walk to it. Until you do, all the miracles in the WORLD won't have a whisper of a chance of convincing you. In that context (this is my last topic, I promise! :) ), belief in God appears as a matter of perspective; a theist has the ability to see a Divine miracle in a mundane, commonplace, everyday thing... while a non-theist does not see miracles in even the most grandiose of extraordinary happenings. 'Miracles' don't "prove" God's existence any more than tragedy "proves" His non-existence. Belief in God is internal. If you believe, then you can reconcile yourself to tragedy in many ways. If you do not believe, those ways of reconciliation may not be open to you. I hope this helps, somehow. Sorry for getting on my soapbox!
scavanag@gara.une.oz.au (LIGHTCHILD) (10/29/90)
that wasn't your fault Lord You didn't cause that pain WE brought the sin into the world You take it out again
lionti@ecs.umass.edu (11/02/90)
duncant@mbunix.mitre.org (Thomson) writes: [description of brutal killing cut] > My question is this: How can events such as these be reconciled with > the christian notion of a god who is both omnipotent and benevolent? This is probably the most difficult theological question and so I won't attempt a full answer as I know it would be pitiful. ************************************************************************ *Basically, the answer (in my limited understanding) lies in the idea * *that to allow us (humans) to have Free Will, God must allow us to sin.* ************************************************************************ If you are truely interested in this topic, I suggest you read C.S. Lewis' book "The Problem of Pain" or maybe the book "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" (I'm afraid I don't know the author, I believe it is by a Rabbi, but hey, it is the same God! This book was very popular about 8-10 years ago and shouldn't be too hard to find.) Another thing you might consider is perhaps God IS working (albeit indirectly) to reduce the amount of suffering, and what you hear about is just a trickle that gets through. Consider that in the last 30 years we have been on the brink of complete Nuclear destruction TWICE! First during the Cuban missle crisis, then again in 1983 during the Reagan years (see the article in Time Magazine about the KGB defector), very scary stuff. As another poster commented, however, this problem may serve as a mental block to accepting the gift of Faith, but to start believing in God, you just have to make an "illogical leap" and try to believe. I know, I did this two years ago (I was an Existential Atheist, along the lines of John-Paul Sartre) after the birth of my daughter, and it worked (amazingly enough!) I realize this is a pretty weak answer to such a difficult question, so I really must stress that you should (if interested) read a book or two by a professional writer/theologian/apologist. The C.S. Lewis book mentioned above is short, and Lewis writes with a simple, common sense style that has made him the most popular lay apologist of this Century. If you are not familiar with him, he also wrote "Mere Christianity" and the fantasy series "The Cronicles of Narnia" Good Luck. I would appreciate it (as I'm sure everyone here would) if you would post your thoughts about the results of your inquiry to this group. If you don't get a satisfactory answer here, please don't assume that this group has all there is to say from a Christian perspective on this matter. (No offence to the other posters here intended, of course) As far as I'm aware, none of the people posting here are professional theologians, and so any answer you get is that of a lay person, not an expert. (especially mine! :-) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Eric C. McClure lionti@umaecs.bitnet Standard Disclaimer
dg@pallio.uucp (David Goodenough) (11/02/90)
duncant@mbunix.mitre.org (Thomson) asks: > I don't know if you'll want to discuss this on your group, but I am really > interested in how Christians will answer this question, so here goes... > > I read a story in the news yesterday about the killing of a politician > and his family in Lebanon. [nasty story deleted] It goes something like this: God doesn't want to be worshipped by a bunch of mindless zombies, so all of us humans have something called free will. This means that he only gets people worshipping him that _WANT_ to. Unfortunately, as a side effect of this, we get to do whatever we want. Also a price has to be paid for our actions, but just what the price is, and who pays it, is another aspect of Christian doctrine that I won't go into now. Now if God were to stop gunmen from killing people, then he'd be removing free will, and that defeats the whole purpose of what we're after. My next sentance may take a lot of understanding, but this is what my Christian faith is all about. I grieve more for the gunmen than for the dead people, because if the dead people were Christians, they will be rejoicing in God's prescence now, whereas the gunmen may wind up in hell if they don't repent of their actions. All four of my Grandparents are dead now, and I remember the deaths of three of them. At the time, I was really hurt: when my father's mother passed on, I wasn't sure how I was going to cope with the realisation that Grandma was gone. But in time, I got over it, and while the loss hurts, I force myself to consider the larger view, and rejoice that she is in a better place than I am. Death is part of the contract we all sign at our birth, as has been remarked there are only two sure things in life: death and taxes. However because of my faith, death holds no fear for me. Can an atheist make the same claim? Yours, -- dg@pallio.UUCP - David Goodenough +---+ IHS | +-+-+ ..... !harvard!xait!pallio!dg +-+-+ | AKA: dg%pallio.uucp@xait.xerox.com +---+
gschwend@smdvx1.intel.com (Greg Schwendinger) (11/05/90)
In article <Oct.25.02.58.11.1990.28720@athos.rutgers.edu> duncant@mbunix.mitre.org (Thomson) writes: >I don't know if you'll want to discuss this on your group, but I am really Might as well. >I read a story in the news yesterday about the killing of a politician >and his family in Lebanon. Gunmen came into his house, and shot him a few (more gruesome details...) >My question is this: How can events such as these be reconciled with >the christian notion of a god who is both omnipotent and benevolent? In this case, the answer seems to lie in the freedom of choice that we Christians believe that God has bestowed on each of us. I personally believe that this gift was a wonderful and generous one. However, humans are imperfect and so is their use of this gift. Here the gunmen seem to have chosen immorally. A harder case would have been one seemingly out of anyone's control; e.g., natural disasters that destroy lives. Here I don't pretend to comprehend God or his motives, but I know that some people have more trouble assuming this position on these issues than me. Peace, Greg
kutz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Kenneth J. Kutz) (11/05/90)
In article <Oct.25.02.58.11.1990.28720@athos.rutgers.edu>, duncant@mbunix.mitre.org (Thomson) writes: > It seems to me impossible to accept that an all-powerful god could allow > a child to be murdered in such a brutal way. If any person had the power > to prevent such an atrocity, and failed to act, in my opinion such a person > would be completely dispicable. > Is there an answer? ("The Lord Works in Mysterious Ways" does not hack it > with me.) I can see where a person who believes "life on earth is all there is" would get upset with a "god" like this. If one carries the above presupposition into a discussion of "why are young children allowed to be murdered?", frustration and animosity toward such a "god" must necessarily be the result. I must say however, no one has a right to such a presupposition. In order to hold a presupposition, one must have evidence to support it. If I presuppose that if I push this terminal off the edge of my desk, it will fall to the ground, I have a right to that presupposition because I have seen gravity act upon unsuspended objects countless times in my life. If I hold the view that "there is no such thing as eternal life", that view is based on *faith* and I have no right to presuppose it to be true. Remove then, that presupposition you have that eternal bliss with the Lord does not exist and glance at the graph below: |-|---------------------------/.../--------------------------------> forever ^ ^ | | Born| | "Died" You see how insignificant the time is here on earth in the Christian view? I suspect those children may feel like Paul who would have been happy to die so he could go be with his Creator, the One whom he was designed to have fellowship with forever. -- Kenneth J. Kutz Internet kutz@andy.bgsu.edu Systems Programmer BITNET KUTZ@ANDY University Computer Services UUCP ...!osu-cis!bgsuvax!kutz Bowling Green State Univ. US Mail 238 Math Science, BG OH 43403
malt@watcsc.waterloo.edu (Mark Tompsett) (11/05/90)
In article <Oct.25.02.58.11.1990.28720@athos.rutgers.edu> duncant@mbunix.mitre.org (Thomson) writes: >I don't know if you'll want to discuss this on your group, but I am really >interested in how Christians will answer this question, so here goes... >I read a story in the news yesterday about the killing of a politician >and his family in Lebanon. Gunmen came into his house, and shot him a few and other gorry details >My question is this: How can events such as these be reconciled with >the christian notion of a god who is both omnipotent and benevolent? >It seems to me impossible to accept that an all-powerful god could allow >a child to be murdered in such a brutal way. If any person had the power >to prevent such an atrocity, and failed to act, in my opinion such a person >would be completely dispicable. > He then asks is there an answer. Yes, but mine might not be it. Your question could be rephrased to: Why didn't God stop this occurence? And that can be answered by the fact that God gave us free will. He gave us free will, and we may abuse it or not, and it isn't any of God's business to intervene, with the exception of Heaven/Hell. Where would this world be if we expected God to intervene every time something bad was about to happen? We would have a "perfect" life, and the Christian life would require no effort at all! However, maybe it was to this families benefit? If they went to Heaven, are you going to get mad at God for giving them the superior atmosphere of Heaven verses this planet? Maybe they even deserved it! How do you know they didn't blaspheme against God,etc. God has in the past killed people because of things like that. Take Herod, for example. He tried to set himself up as God, and well ZAP! He's dead! Take for instance, Sodom and Gommorah! They were vile! God being all knowing knew they wouldn't change, and so ZAP! They're gone! I don't know if that has helped any, and I doubt that all will agree, however, I can honestly say that this was the result of some serious thought! God inspired? Maybe not, but then again, if it was, it wouldn't make much difference, because God is always contraversial! He can offend some, and not others. I'm on a quest to know what God wants - Mark Tompsett
sandrock@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Mark T. Sandrock) (11/06/90)
duncant@mbunix.mitre.org (Thomson) writes: >[description of brutal killing cut] > My question is this: How can events such as these be reconciled with > the christian notion of a god who is both omnipotent and benevolent? That just this point should prove time and again to be such a difficult one for people to grasp merely indicates how little we have ever learned to understand our God and His wonderful Creation! Mankind has been given free will for his journey through Creation. And what does this meam? It means that it cannot be forseen in advance how a person will choose, nor any limits placed upon what he can choose, otherwise we could not then speak of a truly free will to choose. Then, we ask, where does justice come in, for a perfect God must have to be not only perfectly loving, but also perfectly just. The answer is that Divine Justice has been woven into the fabric of Creation from the very beginning. It is fulfilled through what we may call Divine Laws or Natural Laws. And nothing can escape the working of these Laws, nothing! What are these Laws? They can be simply listed as follows: 1) The Law of Reciprocal Action. Also called the Law of Sowing and Reaping. It was to this law that Jesus made reference when He said: "What a man sows, that *shall* he reap." 2) The Law of Attraction of Homogeneous Species. "Birds of a feather, flock together." This law is quite easy to observe with both people and animals, for instance. 3) The Law of Spiritual Gravitation. This law is a little harder for us to understand aright at first, since it applies to the "beyond", to the path of the human soul after departing this life. Simply put, it means that what is "darker" or "baser" in the spiritual sense will "sink" to its own level in the next world. Likewise, what is "lighter", "purer", and "nobler" in the spiritual sense will "rise" to its own level in the "beyond". The operation of this law can explain how, for instance, we can talk about "seven heavens", or also the existence of the various "levels" in the nether realms of the "beyond". 4) The Law of Necessary Movement. There is no standing still in Creation. Much of our "protection" in life has to do with how we exert ourselves to remain "on the alert" in life. This concept of "being alert" can be understood from the word "watch" in the admonition to "watch and pray", or also in the Parable of the Wise Virgins, who made the effort to keep their "lanterns" filled -- their ability to perceive intuitively alert. It is not obvious at first sight, how these few simple Laws are able to ensure absolute Justice in all happenings, but the fact is that they do! For a full and complete explanation of these Laws, I must once again refer serious seekers to the work "In the Light of Truth", the Grail Message, by Abd-ru-shin, which is available through the Grail Foundation of America. To give an idea of how a knowledge of these simple Laws can be applied to explain the difficult "problem of suffering" perhaps the example of the Incas, the "Children of the Sun", would be helpful here. The terrible fate that befell the Incas was *not* a case of "sowing and reaping", since these people were living a happy, innocent life and had not sown such evil themselves. However, because of their contentment in living such a life, the Incas in fact would have come to a *standstill* as far as their spiritual development was concerned. If we understand that the actual purpose of human life *is* indeed spiritual development, then we can begin to understand that despite the suffering, the Incas gained in the spiritual sense, since they could therewith be *awakened* in order to go on developing in the spiritual *and* earthly sense! (Law of Movement). The malevolent men who had attacked the Incas, however, therewith knotted a new karma (fate) which would have to begin to manifest itself in either the current or subsequent earthlives, until such time as each particular individual had atoned for his own actions (The Law of Sowing and Reaping). Much evil can already be turned aside through being *awake* in the spiritual sense. This is how we are meant to live according to the Will of God. So too, when suffering befalls us, the question to ask is not "how can God permit this to happen?" but rather, what can I learn from the experience? How can I avoid similar suffering in the future? Have I learned everything I should from the experience, so that it will not be necessary to go through it again? Have I truly done all I can to understand and fulfil God' Will in my life? These are critical questions to ask ourselves, and the answers will surely help to lead us onward on our spiritual path through life! Onward towards the ultimate joy and happiness that comes with fulfilling our life's purpose. If we really believe in a *perfect* God, then it stands to reason that we should always be striving to better understand His Perfect Will, which does manifest Itself in the *perfect* Divine Laws of Creation. We should realize that our limited earthly-human view is not the ultimate criterion for life. This earthlife is but a necessary step in our entire spiritual development! Regards, Mark Sandrock -- BITNET: sandrock@uiucscs Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign Internet: sandrock@aries.scs.uiuc.edu Chemical Sciences Computing Services Voice: 217-244-0561 505 S. Mathews Ave., Urbana, IL 61801
kavanagh@acc.stolaf.edu (11/06/90)
Good question! I'm glad you asked because he who seeks finds etc... I'm brand new to this newsgroup (about 20 minutes) and I don't profess to have all the answers to life's difficult questions but I can tell you what I do know for sure. The question basically is this: How could an omnipotent good God allow evil? This question is as old as the hills but I believe it does have an answer. God is in the business of raising perfected sons. The whole purpose of all creation is relationships. Sounds gushy doesn't it? That's right, God wants to have a personal relationship all of us. God Himself is even a relationship, the Holy Trinity. And God made us in His image and we are made up of three parts as well: body, soul, and spirit. The whole Bible can be seen as a love story from Genesis to Revelations. Now let's take a look at a couple of God's characters. First of all He loves us beyond our comprehension and no matter what we do He cannot stop loving us. Second of all He is Holy and Just. He must punish sin. He can't get around it. Every sin commited in the universe must be punished, it is part of His charater. So God is in a paradox. He loves us but every one of us has turned away from Him and given Him the cold shoulder, so to speak. This is where Jesus fits in. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only son so that whosever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life"(John 3:16-the best I could do from memory.) There can be no forgiveness without the shedding of blood. And God Himself, in the incarnate Jesus, shed His blood for us and all we have to do is repent and accept Jesus's payment for our sin. So what does this have to do with the problem of evil? God had to give us free will so that we could choose to love Him. God did not want to have robots in His Kingdom. Personal I have a tough time loving hardware as well. And the sad truth is that every one of us have choosen the route of sin and death. God has to respect what we choose-if he is to raise perfected children. I hope this helps a little. The best thing to do is to cry out to God for yourself. He'll answer. God is for us and He desires that all men could come to know the truth. Fifteen words sum up the whole Gosple of Jesus: God loves us. We are sinners. Jesus paid for our sins. We must accept Jesus. Keep seeking and praying, you will find. As one who knows Jesus, I know there are some basic things that you can know for sure. It takes a step in faith but you will find your foot stepping on solid ground! With many prayers, as I know it is God who ministers, not me, God bless! Darren Kavanagh kavanagh@nic.stolaf.edu PS. I may sound patriarchal at times but when I say men etc.. I mean all of mankind.
mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) (11/06/90)
In article <Nov.2.04.03.20.1990.4498@porthos.rutgers.edu> dg@pallio.uucp (David Goodenough) writes: >duncant@mbunix.mitre.org (Thomson) asks: >> I read a story in the news yesterday about the killing of a politician >> and his family in Lebanon. [nasty story deleted] > It strikes me that those who ask the question "why does God allow suffering" have not the faintest idea of what Christianity is all about. They are, perhaps, victims of that "God as a marketing trick", God presented as a cuddly Teddy Bear, rather than God as a Father who is to be feared as well as loved about which I complained in a previous posting. The most central belief of Christianity is that God was made man and suffered appallingly as a man. Christianity says that God is with us in our suffering - when we suffer, God suffers. Pain and suffering are part of God's plan for the universe, most centrally because without pain there is no joy. We go through pain and suffering as children because it is the only way to emerge as adults (we all know examples of people who have had extraordinarily sheltered childhoods, and have as a result never really grown up) - but if we are fortunate we have strong parents to pull us through. In the same way, God our Father pulls us through the suffering we endure here on earth. Matthew Huntbach
kevinc@sequent.uucp (Kevin Closson) (11/08/90)
In article <Nov.5.04.49.12.1990.15348@athos.rutgers.edu> gschwend@smdvx1.intel.com (Greg Schwendinger) writes: >In article <Oct.25.02.58.11.1990.28720@athos.rutgers.edu> duncant@mbunix.mitre.org (Thomson) writes: >>I don't know if you'll want to discuss this on your group, but I am really > >Might as well. > >>I read a story in the news yesterday about the killing of a politician >>and his family in Lebanon. Gunmen came into his house, and shot him a few > >(more gruesome details...) > >>My question is this: How can events such as these be reconciled with >>the christian notion of a god who is both omnipotent and benevolent? > >In this case, the answer seems to lie in the freedom of choice that we This notion of "freedom of choice" is an awful cute line, but come on. Who had the freedom of choice here? >are imperfect and so is their use of this gift. Here the gunmen seem to >have chosen immorally. Yeah, and the question is still without an answer. The gunmen chose.... What about the dead? Is God willing to let their lives go to see if the gunmen will make the choice - he knows they wont? What a game! A good friend of our family was just diagnosed with cancer all over her body. This woman has lived an unbelievably devout life. Yeah, yeah Job had it rough. No time to be trite here. The account of Job's problems is a nice example of how noble hindsight is! The woman I know has to face her family after each Chemo-torture and uphold her mind-set that this is the "Will of God". Give me a break! Right, some Denominations will con- tend that this is the work of Satan, as God has permitted it! What a deal. God creates the life of this woman, knows from birth that He will eventually allow Satan to torture her and kill her? Or will the prayers of all involved change his mind? -- Kevin Closson Sequent Technical Support Database/Layered Products x83072
arm@Neon.Stanford.EDU (Alexander d Macalalad) (11/09/90)
In article <Nov.7.21.29.09.1990.13190@athos.rutgers.edu> kevinc@sequent.uucp (Kevin Closson) writes: > A good friend of our family was just diagnosed with cancer all over her > body. This woman has lived an unbelievably devout life. Yeah, yeah Job > had it rough. No time to be trite here. The account of Job's problems > is a nice example of how noble hindsight is! The woman I know has to face > her family after each Chemo-torture and uphold her mind-set that this is > the "Will of God". Give me a break! Right, some Denominations will con- > tend that this is the work of Satan, as God has permitted it! What a deal. > God creates the life of this woman, knows from birth that He will eventually > allow Satan to torture her and kill her? Or will the prayers of all involved > change his mind? Kevin, I hear a lot of anger and cynicism in your post, and if I had the picture of God which you paint, I would be angry as well. I think, though, that you are missing the point of the book of Job. I read Job to mean that it is all right to feel anger and betrayal against God. That is how we are built, and that is a part of being human. What it condemns is the response of denial, where we cover up our feelings with phrases like "I must have done something wrong to deserve this" or "this is the will of God". Now it might be true, but it is no reason mask our feelings. Look closely at whom God punishes and whom He rewards. Everyone will feel pain and suffering at some point in life, and everyone will die. There is no escape. I don't mean to be trite, either, but who said that life is fair? Actually, I am happy that life isn't fair, since we would otherwise be damned, for no one deserves salvation. Pain and suffering, just like any experience in the process of life, is an invitation for us to deepen our relationship with God, and the book of Job shows how this is true. Only in acknowledging and offering up our suffering and our consequent feelings can God enter into our lives and enrich us with His grace. I have started working with people living with HIV disease, and I am continually struck by how much life some of them have, and in talking with them, I can see how God has worked in them as they learn to accept their disease and continue living. They have many lessons on living that they could and do teach others. I am sure that this is true with other terminal patients as well. Now some people's conception of God and spirituality may be very different from the traditional Christian conception, and indeed some of the most spiritual people I know are self-described atheists. But each person has a unique relationship with God, and no matter what the relationship is, if it is approached with an open mind and an eye towards truth and not denial, then God can enter into that relationship. Witnessing His work and His healing firsthand and through others only strengthens my faith in Him. Alex Macalalad
vvrcd@helios.lerc.nasa.gov (Robert C. Dibacco (SVER)) (11/09/90)
> > > > A good friend of our family was just diagnosed with cancer all over her > body. This woman has lived an unbelievably devout life. Yeah, yeah Job > had it rough. No time to be trite here. The account of Job's problems > is a nice example of how noble hindsight is! The woman I know has to face > her family after each Chemo-torture and uphold her mind-set that this is > the "Will of God". Give me a break! Right, some Denominations will con- > tend that this is the work of Satan, as God has permitted it! What a deal. > God creates the life of this woman, knows from birth that He will eventually > allow Satan to torture her and kill her? Or will the prayers of all involved > change his mind? > > > >-- >Kevin Closson >Sequent Technical Support >Database/Layered Products x83072 I just have a comment to the above. I had a sister who battled two long years with breast cancer that eventually spread to her liver. Talk about a heart breaking experience to see a woman of 38 with a young daughter and a loving husband wither away. My only consolation through this was that she accepted the lord and I know she is in heaven now in peace. Despite that we are still missing her and my parents are devastated as well and they are not young. No I don't like that this happened and my humanness (sp?) does not want to let go and I still cry inside when I see my niece who does not have a mommy anymore but I know that Dottie is happy now and we will pick up the pieces. Maybe that is what it took for her to make a full commitment I do not know but I must believe that God will still use this happening in my families lives to bring more of them into the fold. ============================================================================= Bob DiBacco (Sverdrup Technology) NASA Lewis Research Center vvrcd@mars.lerc.nasa.gov Phone (216) 891-2222 =============================================================================
kevinc@sequent.uucp (Kevin Closson) (11/10/90)
In article <Nov.9.00.48.31.1990.28988@athos.rutgers.edu> vvrcd@helios.lerc.nasa.gov (Robert C. Dibacco (SVER)) writes: > [ text deleted ] ... I had a sister who battled two long years >with breast cancer that eventually spread to her liver. Talk about a heart >breaking experience to see a woman of 38 with a young daughter and a loving >husband wither away. ... but I must believe that God will still use this happening in my families lives to bring more of them into the fold. THIS is unbelievable! Rather costly evangelism, don't you think? -- Kevin Closson Sequent Technical Support Database/Layered Products x83072
garyh@crash.cts.com (Gary Hipp) (11/12/90)
In article <Nov.10.07.31.43.1990.24929@athos.rutgers.edu> kevinc@sequent.uucp (Kevin Closson) writes: >In article <Nov.9.00.48.31.1990.28988@athos.rutgers.edu> vvrcd@helios.lerc.nasa.gov (Robert C. Dibacco (SVER)) writes: > > >> [ text deleted ] ... I had a sister who battled two long years >>with breast cancer that eventually spread to her liver. Talk about a heart >>breaking experience to see a woman of 38 with a young daughter and a loving >>husband wither away. > > ... > > but I must believe that God will still use this happening in my families lives to bring more of them into the fold. > > > > THIS is unbelievable! Rather costly evangelism, don't you think? What ever gave you the idea that it was cheap? If anyone gives you the idea that being a Christian is a life where all your problems are solved and you will live in complete bliss, they are telling you a big lie. Christians WILL suffer more than those who don't believe because the process of being separated for God's work is trying and sometimes painfull. I leave you with this, And He was saying to them all, if anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. for whoever wishes to save his life shall lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it. for what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits himself?--Luke 9:23-25.