[soc.religion.christian] An atheist's question

duncant@mbunix.mitre.org (Thomson) (10/25/90)

I don't know if you'll want to discuss this on your group, but I am really
interested in how Christians will answer this question, so here goes...

I read a story in the news yesterday about the killing  of a politician
and his family in Lebanon.  Gunmen came into his house, and shot him a few
times in the head and stomach.  His children, age 6 and 10 (Ithink), 
ran screaming to their mother.  The gunmen pursued them, and shot the mother 
while they clung to her.  They then shot both of the children.  A third child,
an infant, escaped death because the killers did not know she was there.

My question is this:  How can events such as these be reconciled with
the christian notion of a god who is both omnipotent and benevolent?

It seems to me impossible to accept that an all-powerful god could allow
a child to be murdered in such a brutal way.  If any person had the power
to prevent such an atrocity, and failed to act, in my opinion such a person
would be completely dispicable.

Is there an answer?  ("The Lord Works in Mysterious Ways" does not hack it
with me.)


--
(Please excuse the typos and garbage caused by line noise.)

uriel@oak.circa.ufl.edu (Scott Whitmore) (10/28/90)

In article <Oct.25.02.58.11.1990.28720@athos.rutgers.edu>, duncant@mbunix.mitre.org (Thomson) writes:
>I don't know if you'll want to discuss this on your group, but I am really
>interested in how Christians will answer this question, so here goes...

I can only hope I don't let you down.

>[bloodbath story deleted]
>My question is this:  How can events such as these be reconciled with
>the christian notion of a god who is both omnipotent and benevolent?
>It seems to me impossible to accept that an all-powerful god could allow
>a child to be murdered in such a brutal way.  If any person had the power
>to prevent such an atrocity, and failed to act, in my opinion such a person
>would be completely dispicable.
>

This is a question that I have seen very few Christians answer satisfactorily.
I see it this way: the world is an evil place, period; the only thing that 
could change that is God coming down and wiping out ALL evil (not just "brutal"
events).  The reason why God hasn't done that is because if He did, when evil
was wiped out, so all of us would be wiped out too... or at least all of us
who had not as of yet come to know Him and be saved.  God would like to rescue
all the rescueable people before blasting everyone else to ashes like they 
deserve.

In the meantime, God can use tragedy and pain to do good for people if they
choose to let Him do so... reading a bloodbath story could potentially lead you
to understand the evil nature of the world and strengthen your resolve to
oppose it, or it could lead you to gain greater compassion toward those who
are involved in tragedy.  Or it could cause you to turn to Him directly to
avoid being a casualty of evil.  And what about the victims of that bloodbath?
Well, to be blunt, everyone has to die sometime, somehow.

>Is there an answer?  ("The Lord Works in Mysterious Ways" does not hack it
>with me.)
>  

Nor with me.  Saying "It's God's will that these people were murdered!" is a 
gross misrepresentation.  Sure, God allows people to suffer loss... and if you,
being human, can feel for those victims, then how much more does He feel for
them, His children?... but better they should suffer such temporal loss than 
suffer a swift and sure eternal loss.

I hope that makes some sense...

Scott

==========================================================================
Scott Whitmore            | Me? Represent the University of Florida? Ha!
uriel@maple.circa.ufl.edu | "Believe the unbelievable;
24-510 Tolbert Hall       |  Come be a fool as well."
University of Florida     |			-- Michael Card
Gainesville,FL 32612      |			   "God's Own Fool"
==========================================================================

ldh@bessel.eedsp.gatech.edu (Lonnie D Harvel) (10/28/90)

In article <Oct.25.02.58.11.1990.28720@athos.rutgers.edu>,
duncant@mbunix.mitre.org (Thomson) writes:
|>I don't know if you'll want to discuss this on your group, but I am really
|>interested in how Christians will answer this question, so here goes...
|>
|>    Horrible act omitted...
|>
|>My question is this:  How can events such as these be reconciled with
|>the christian notion of a god who is both omnipotent and benevolent?
|>
|>It seems to me impossible to accept that an all-powerful god could allow
|>a child to be murdered in such a brutal way.  If any person had the power
|>to prevent such an atrocity, and failed to act, in my opinion such a person
|>would be completely dispicable.
|>
|>Is there an answer?  ("The Lord Works in Mysterious Ways" does not hack it
|>with me.)
|>

   "The Lord Works in Mysterious Ways" , doesn't hack it for me
either.  Free will does, however.  God gave man dominion over the
earth and all that is within it.  If we blow it to hades and back,
I do not believe he will intervene directly.  I have always felt
that God interacts through his followers, and the Holy Spirit.
It seems that the great miracles of the bible have been performed
by people enacting the will of God.  Even to the point that God
became Man himself, in order to provide a living sacrifice for
our sins.  Some would say that this proves that it is men and
not God who are great, but these people have been filled with
the power of God and/or the Holy Spirit, and they claim that it
is God and not them, I believe them.

    There are still miracles, God still interacts, man is just
sophisticated enough not to be impressed.  As for the atrocity
of which you spoke, it was commited by men, men who do not 
follow God in my opinion, regardless of what they claim.  God
asks that we follow him, asks that we accept his Grace, asks that
we accept his power, he does not force.  God has granted men
the right to choose, He is witholding judgement until the end.

These are my opinions and I ask forgiveness for oversimplification.

Yours in Christ

Lonnie

----------------------------------------------------------------
     The comments and spelling herein are mine and nobody
                     else lays claim to them.
================================================================
Lonnie D. Harvel                 |  ldh@bessel.eedsp.gatech.edu
School of Electrical Engineering |  
Georgia Institue of Technology   |  "quisque suis patimur manis" 
Atlanta, GA  30332-0250          |  Virgil

mmoore@ub.d.umn.edu (Michelle Moore) (10/28/90)

 duncant@mbunix.mitre.org (Thomson) writes:
>I don't know if you'll want to discuss this on your group, but I am really
>interested in how Christians will answer this question, so here goes...
>
	(line's telling of murder of Lebanese family deleted)
>
>My question is this:  How can events such as these be reconciled with
>the christian notion of a god who is both omnipotent and benevolent?
>
>It seems to me impossible to accept that an all-powerful god could allow
>a child to be murdered in such a brutal way.  If any person had the power
>to prevent such an atrocity, and failed to act, in my opinion such a person
>would be completely dispicable.
>
>Is there an answer?  ("The Lord Works in Mysterious Ways" does not hack it
>with me.)

	i also have a hard time trusting in "the Lord works in mysterious
	ways" and i am a Christian!  i am asked this question and others much
	like it frequently (heck! i've asked it myself!), and i don't really 
	have an "answer", but i do
	have an idea (i'm sorta new at this Christian business so if any of
	you "old timers" out there want to correct me i wouldn't mind):
		
	i recently read an excellent book on the subject of spiritual
	warfare called "This Present Darkness" (the title comes from
	Ephesians).  while reading, this question surfaced to my mind again
	and again.  and the only answer that i have is that God doesn't have
	the power to protect you unless you let Him, unless you invite him to
	take control of your life.  that doesn't mean that
	Christians are free from evil.  actually, quite the opposite.  but a
	Christian has faith that a life with the Everlasting is worth it. at
	least i do.  

	paghty!  (peace and good health to you :-)

	
--
Jesus loves me, Yup yup yup - don't know why...

Michelle "Shelly" "Mic" "Mickey" "Mickster" "Micaroonie" Moore

hall@vice.ico.tek.com (Hal Lillywhite) (10/29/90)

[This is a response to a question from duncant, who described a 
multiple killing, and asked how God could permit this.  --clh]

Well, this may be another of those "Your God can't exist if he
allows this" shots but I'll bite anyway. 

Actually for one who believes in an afterlife, the this is not a
great problem.  The victims are still living in a different state,
they just arrived there a bit sooner than they expected to.  We're
all going to die anyway, it's just a question of when.  Our lack 
of knowledge is in the area of why one person lives 100 years on 
this earth while another is taken while very young.  I could
speculate on some possible reasons but I certainly claim no
knowledge of any proposed reasons applied to specific individuals.  
In fact given our tendency to gossip I suspect God deliberately 
witholds knowledge of why he treats one person one way and somebody 
else differently.  After a while in eternity it probably won't make
much difference if we lived a few more years on earth, or even if
those years were spent in a mansion or a concentration camp.  What
will matter is what we learned from our experiences.  Probably much
of the experience we are given is to help us learn.  Different
people get different experience because they need to learn different
things.  

To me the real tragedy of this event is not the deaths but the fact
that someone could be vicious enough to cause those deaths.  They
are probably in a living hell already.

carsup@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Fisher Library support) (10/29/90)

  Dear A.N.Atheist,
Injustice in the world of the type you describe is terrible. God is *NOT* 
insensitive to this, and is in fact realy pissed off by the evil within us,
but he also realy cares. Suffering within the world is caused by what we do
and not by what God wants us to do. God chooses to allow us to do evil 
because he has given us free will. We have chosen on the whole to stuff up
the person next to us and all our actions, although not as extreme as the one
you describe, reflect this. It is not God that pulls the trigger and kills the
children, it is our uncaring selves. God has shown us love in the sacrifice of
his son Christ on our behalf. You may feel this is irrelevant or untrue, however
there is no greater display of selflessness and self-sacrifice than Christ's
death on the cross for us. This sacrifice was made so that it would be an 
example for us of what God's love is. We naturaly hate God because he is good
and we are evil. You may not agree that we would all react in the same murderous
way in the situation described, but you have not experienced the extent that we
will go to when we feel threatened or in need. The sacrifice of Christ changes
us so that we love our enemies and do good to those who would kill us. This is
what free will is all about, is to be able to transcend our human natures 
through God who works in us . It was never God who pulled the trigger, but
ourselves.
                   Yours in CHRIST'S love
			matt.
(only typed by james, and fisher library doesn't even know about it).

/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\
\									      /
/  yo' got it all wrong!. Muddy Waters invented electricity! - Crossroads     \
\  									      /
/       /      Jim Uther - Email 8841060@cs.su.OZ.AU - phone 5507277 	      \
\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/-\_/

oracle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Brian T. Coughlin) (10/29/90)

Re: Thomson

In article <Oct.25.02.58.11.1990.28720@athos.rutgers.edu>
 duncant@mbunix.mitre.org (Thomson) writes:

>I read a story in the news yesterday about the killing  of a politician
>and his family in Lebanon.

 [description of massacre of man and family omitted for space]

>My question is this:  How can events such as these be reconciled with
>the christian notion of a god who is both omnipotent and benevolent?
>It seems to me impossible to accept that an all-powerful god could allow
>a child to be murdered in such a brutal way.  If any person had the power
>to prevent such an atrocity, and failed to act, in my opinion such a person
>would be completely dispicable.

>Is there an answer?  ("The Lord Works in Mysterious Ways" does not hack it
>with me.)


  Dear Thomson,


    My most honest answer is, "No, there ISN'T an answer." There comes
 a point where faith just can't be tied to worldly affairs. Even if I
 were ABLE to give good reason for God's choice in this matter, it
 would not promote your belief in God any more than any other statement
 would.
    Forgive me if that sounds weird; maybe I can try to explain.
    Belief in God is a very un-worldly thing; I, personally, am quite
 unclear as to HOW someone gets the gift of faith (save that God had
 SOMETHING to do with it)... but I *do* know that faith is not simply
 a logical conclusion arrived at by processing facts. The jump to faith,
 ultimately, has NOTHING to do with logic... or worldly events... at all.
 This statement might also sound weird... but it is quite impossible to
 have faith in God without consciously deciding to believe in Him.
 Circular, admittedly, but true in a very real sense. You cannot
 just wait around and expect an outside force (God, the world, whatever)
 to MAKE you believe, or MAKE you WANT to believe, in God. It just
 won't happen. In order to believe, you have to just jump in; you have
 to resolve yourself to just believing, despite ALL of your intellectual
 objections. Believe me, theists also have intellectual trouble with
 God... at LEAST as much as atheists and agnostics... and maybe MORE so,
 since the option of "ignoring" God isn't open to them. The only difference
 between the intellectual "God-struggle" of non-theists and theists
 is that theists don't let intellectual hardships throw them.
    I honestly don't mean for the above to sound harsh (my sincere
 apologies if it did!); I *did* want to make clear that there is NO
 SUCH THING as "passive" faith. Faith won't get up and walk to you.
 You have to walk to it. Until you do, all the miracles in the WORLD
 won't have a whisper of a chance of convincing you.
    In that context (this is my last topic, I promise! :)  ), belief
 in God appears as a matter of perspective; a theist has the ability to
 see a Divine miracle in a mundane, commonplace, everyday thing... while
 a non-theist does not see miracles in even the most grandiose of
 extraordinary happenings.
    'Miracles' don't "prove" God's existence any more than tragedy "proves"
 His non-existence. Belief in God is internal. If you believe, then you
 can reconcile yourself to tragedy in many ways. If you do not believe,
 those ways of reconciliation may not be open to you.
    I hope this helps, somehow. Sorry for getting on my soapbox!

scavanag@gara.une.oz.au (LIGHTCHILD) (10/29/90)

that wasn't your fault Lord
You didn't cause that pain
WE brought the sin into the world
You take it out again

lionti@ecs.umass.edu (11/02/90)

duncant@mbunix.mitre.org (Thomson) writes:

[description of brutal killing cut]

> My question is this:  How can events such as these be reconciled with
> the christian notion of a god who is both omnipotent and benevolent?

This is probably the most difficult theological question and so I won't
attempt a full answer as I know it would be pitiful.

************************************************************************
*Basically, the answer (in my limited understanding) lies in the idea  *
*that to allow us (humans) to have Free Will, God must allow us to sin.*  
************************************************************************

If you are truely interested in this topic, I suggest you read C.S. Lewis'
book "The Problem of Pain" or maybe the book "When Bad Things Happen to Good
People" (I'm afraid I don't know the author, I believe it is by a Rabbi, but
hey, it is the same God!  This book was very popular about 8-10 years ago and 
shouldn't be too hard to find.)

Another thing you might consider is perhaps God IS working (albeit indirectly)
to reduce the amount of suffering, and what you hear about is just a trickle 
that gets through.  Consider that in the last 30 years we have been on the 
brink of complete Nuclear destruction TWICE!  First during the Cuban missle 
crisis, then again in 1983 during the Reagan years (see the article in Time 
Magazine about the KGB defector), very scary stuff.

As another poster commented, however, this problem may serve as a mental
block to accepting the gift of Faith, but to start believing in God, you
just have to make an "illogical leap" and try to believe.  I know, I did
this two years ago (I was an Existential Atheist, along the lines of
John-Paul Sartre) after the birth of my daughter, and it worked (amazingly
enough!)

I realize this is a pretty weak answer to such a difficult question, so I
really must stress that you should (if interested) read a book or two by
a professional writer/theologian/apologist.  The C.S. Lewis book mentioned
above is short, and Lewis writes with a simple, common sense style that has
made him the most popular lay apologist of this Century.  If you are not
familiar with him, he also wrote "Mere Christianity" and the fantasy series
"The Cronicles of Narnia"

Good Luck.  I would appreciate it (as I'm sure everyone here would) if you 
would post your thoughts about the results of your inquiry to this group.  
If you don't get a satisfactory answer here, please don't assume that this 
group has all there is to say from a Christian perspective on this matter. 
(No offence to the other posters here intended, of course)  As far as I'm 
aware, none of the people posting here are professional theologians, and so any
answer you get is that of a lay person, not an expert. (especially mine! :-)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric C. McClure
lionti@umaecs.bitnet
Standard Disclaimer

dg@pallio.uucp (David Goodenough) (11/02/90)

duncant@mbunix.mitre.org (Thomson) asks:
> I don't know if you'll want to discuss this on your group, but I am really
> interested in how Christians will answer this question, so here goes...
>
> I read a story in the news yesterday about the killing  of a politician
> and his family in Lebanon. [nasty story deleted]

It goes something like this:

God doesn't want to be worshipped by a bunch of mindless zombies, so all of
us humans have something called free will. This means that he only gets
people worshipping him that _WANT_ to. Unfortunately, as a side effect of
this, we get to do whatever we want. Also a price has to be paid for our
actions, but just what the price is, and who pays it, is another aspect of
Christian doctrine that I won't go into now. Now if God were to stop gunmen
from killing people, then he'd be removing free will, and that defeats the
whole purpose of what we're after.

My next sentance may take a lot of understanding, but this is what my
Christian faith is all about. I grieve more for the gunmen than for the
dead people, because if the dead people were Christians, they will be
rejoicing in God's prescence now, whereas the gunmen may wind up in hell
if they don't repent of their actions.

All four of my Grandparents are dead now, and I remember the deaths of
three of them. At the time, I was really hurt: when my father's mother
passed on, I wasn't sure how I was going to cope with the realisation
that Grandma was gone. But in time, I got over it, and while the loss
hurts, I force myself to consider the larger view, and rejoice that she
is in a better place than I am. Death is part of the contract we all sign
at our birth, as has been remarked there are only two sure things in life:
death and taxes. However because of my faith, death holds no fear for me.
Can an atheist make the same claim?

			Yours,
-- 
	dg@pallio.UUCP - David Goodenough		+---+
						IHS	| +-+-+
	..... !harvard!xait!pallio!dg			+-+-+ |
AKA:	dg%pallio.uucp@xait.xerox.com			  +---+

gschwend@smdvx1.intel.com (Greg Schwendinger) (11/05/90)

In article <Oct.25.02.58.11.1990.28720@athos.rutgers.edu> duncant@mbunix.mitre.org (Thomson) writes:
>I don't know if you'll want to discuss this on your group, but I am really

Might as well.

>I read a story in the news yesterday about the killing  of a politician
>and his family in Lebanon.  Gunmen came into his house, and shot him a few

(more gruesome details...)

>My question is this:  How can events such as these be reconciled with
>the christian notion of a god who is both omnipotent and benevolent?

In this case, the answer seems to lie in the freedom of choice that we
Christians believe that God has bestowed on each of us.  I personally
believe that this gift was a wonderful and generous one.  However, humans
are imperfect and so is their use of this gift.  Here the gunmen seem to
have chosen immorally.

A harder case would have been one seemingly out of anyone's control;
e.g., natural disasters that destroy lives.  Here I don't pretend to
comprehend God or his motives, but I know that some people have more
trouble assuming this position on these issues than me.

Peace,
Greg

kutz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Kenneth J. Kutz) (11/05/90)

In article <Oct.25.02.58.11.1990.28720@athos.rutgers.edu>, duncant@mbunix.mitre.org (Thomson) writes:

> It seems to me impossible to accept that an all-powerful god could allow
> a child to be murdered in such a brutal way.  If any person had the power
> to prevent such an atrocity, and failed to act, in my opinion such a person
> would be completely dispicable.

> Is there an answer?  ("The Lord Works in Mysterious Ways" does not hack it
> with me.)

I can see where a person who believes "life on earth is all there is"
would get upset with a "god" like this.  If one carries the above
presupposition into a discussion of "why are young children allowed to
be murdered?", frustration and animosity toward such a "god" must
necessarily be the result.

I must say however, no one has a right to such a presupposition.  In
order to hold a presupposition, one must have evidence to support it.
If I presuppose that if I push this terminal off the edge of my desk,
it will fall to the ground, I have a right to that presupposition because
I have seen gravity act upon unsuspended objects countless times in my
life.  If I hold the view that "there is no such thing as eternal life",
that view is based on *faith* and I have no right to presuppose it to
be true.

Remove then, that presupposition you have that eternal bliss with the
Lord does not exist and glance at the graph below:

  |-|---------------------------/.../--------------------------------> forever
  ^ ^
  | |
Born|
    |
  "Died"

You see how insignificant the time is here on earth in the Christian view?
I suspect those children may feel like Paul who would have been happy
to die so he could go be with his Creator, the One whom he was designed
to have fellowship with forever.


-- 
  Kenneth J. Kutz		  Internet 	kutz@andy.bgsu.edu         
  Systems Programmer		  BITNET   	KUTZ@ANDY
  University Computer Services    UUCP     	...!osu-cis!bgsuvax!kutz   
  Bowling Green State Univ.       US Mail   238 Math Science, BG OH 43403

malt@watcsc.waterloo.edu (Mark Tompsett) (11/05/90)

In article <Oct.25.02.58.11.1990.28720@athos.rutgers.edu> duncant@mbunix.mitre.org (Thomson) writes:
>I don't know if you'll want to discuss this on your group, but I am really
>interested in how Christians will answer this question, so here goes...
>I read a story in the news yesterday about the killing  of a politician
>and his family in Lebanon.  Gunmen came into his house, and shot him a few
and other gorry details
>My question is this:  How can events such as these be reconciled with
>the christian notion of a god who is both omnipotent and benevolent?
>It seems to me impossible to accept that an all-powerful god could allow
>a child to be murdered in such a brutal way.  If any person had the power
>to prevent such an atrocity, and failed to act, in my opinion such a person
>would be completely dispicable.
>
He then asks is there an answer.

Yes, but mine might not be it. Your question could be rephrased to:
Why didn't God stop this occurence?
And that can be answered by the fact that God gave us free will. He gave us 
free will, and we may abuse it or not, and it isn't any of God's business
to intervene, with the exception of Heaven/Hell. Where would this world be
if we expected God to intervene every time something bad was about to happen?
We would have a "perfect" life, and the Christian life would require no
effort at all!
However, maybe it was to this families benefit? If they went to Heaven, are
you going to get mad at God for giving them the superior atmosphere of Heaven
verses this planet? Maybe they even deserved it! How do you know they didn't
blaspheme against God,etc. God has in the past killed people because of things
like that. Take Herod, for example. He tried to set himself up as God, and 
well ZAP! He's dead! Take for instance, Sodom and Gommorah! They were vile!
God being all knowing knew they wouldn't change, and so ZAP! They're gone!
I don't know if that has helped any, and I doubt that all will agree, however,
I can honestly say that this was the result of some serious thought! God
inspired? Maybe not, but then again, if it was, it wouldn't make much 
difference, because God is always contraversial! He can offend some, and
not others.

I'm on a quest to know what God wants - Mark Tompsett

sandrock@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Mark T. Sandrock) (11/06/90)

duncant@mbunix.mitre.org (Thomson) writes:

>[description of brutal killing cut]

> My question is this:  How can events such as these be reconciled with
> the christian notion of a god who is both omnipotent and benevolent?

That just this point should prove time and again to be such a difficult
one for people to grasp merely indicates how little we have ever learned
to understand our God and His wonderful Creation!

Mankind has been given free will for his journey through Creation. And
what does this meam? It means that it cannot be forseen in advance how
a person will choose, nor any limits placed upon what he can choose,
otherwise we could not then speak of a truly free will to choose.

Then, we ask, where does justice come in, for a perfect God must have to
be not only perfectly loving, but also perfectly just.

The answer is that Divine Justice has been woven into the fabric of Creation
from the very beginning. It is fulfilled through what we may call Divine Laws
or Natural Laws. And nothing can escape the working of these Laws, nothing!

What are these Laws? They can be simply listed as follows:

  1) The Law of Reciprocal Action. Also called the Law of Sowing and Reaping.
     It was to this law that Jesus made reference when He said:

             "What a man sows, that *shall* he reap."

  2) The Law of Attraction of Homogeneous Species. "Birds of a feather,
     flock together." This law is quite easy to observe with both people
     and animals, for instance.

  3) The Law of Spiritual Gravitation. This law is a little harder for us
     to understand aright at first, since it applies to the "beyond", to
     the path of the human soul after departing this life. Simply put, it
     means that what is "darker" or "baser" in the spiritual sense will
     "sink" to its own level in the next world. Likewise, what is "lighter",
     "purer", and "nobler" in the spiritual sense will "rise" to its own
     level in the "beyond". The operation of this law can explain how, for
     instance, we can talk about "seven heavens", or also the existence of
     the various "levels" in the nether realms of the "beyond".

  4) The Law of Necessary Movement. There is no standing still in Creation.
     Much of our "protection" in life has to do with how we exert ourselves
     to remain "on the alert" in life. This concept of "being alert" can be
     understood from the word "watch" in the admonition to "watch and pray",
     or also in the Parable of the Wise Virgins, who made the effort to keep
     their "lanterns" filled -- their ability to perceive intuitively alert.

It is not obvious at first sight, how these few simple Laws are able to
ensure absolute Justice in all happenings, but the fact is that they do!
For a full and complete explanation of these Laws, I must once again refer
serious seekers to the work "In the Light of Truth", the Grail Message,
by Abd-ru-shin, which is available through the Grail Foundation of America.

To give an idea of how a knowledge of these simple Laws can be applied to
explain the difficult "problem of suffering" perhaps the example of the
Incas, the "Children of the Sun", would be helpful here.

The terrible fate that befell the Incas was *not* a case of "sowing and
reaping", since these people were living a happy, innocent life and had
not sown such evil themselves. However, because of their contentment in
living such a life, the Incas in fact would have come to a *standstill*
as far as their spiritual development was concerned. If we understand that
the actual purpose of human life *is* indeed spiritual development, then
we can begin to understand that despite the suffering, the Incas gained
in the spiritual sense, since they could therewith be *awakened* in order
to go on developing in the spiritual *and* earthly sense! (Law of Movement).

The malevolent men who had attacked the Incas, however, therewith knotted
a new karma (fate) which would have to begin to manifest itself in either
the current or subsequent earthlives, until such time as each particular
individual had atoned for his own actions (The Law of Sowing and Reaping).

Much evil can already be turned aside through being *awake* in the spiritual
sense. This is how we are meant to live according to the Will of God. So too,
when suffering befalls us, the question to ask is not "how can God permit
this to happen?" but rather, what can I learn from the experience? How can
I avoid similar suffering in the future? Have I learned everything I should
from the experience, so that it will not be necessary to go through it again?
Have I truly done all I can to understand and fulfil God' Will in my life?

These are critical questions to ask ourselves, and the answers will surely
help to lead us onward on our spiritual path through life! Onward towards
the ultimate joy and happiness that comes with fulfilling our life's purpose.

If we really believe in a *perfect* God, then it stands to reason that we
should always be striving to better understand His Perfect Will, which does
manifest Itself in the *perfect* Divine Laws of Creation. We should realize
that our limited earthly-human view is not the ultimate criterion for life.
This earthlife is but a necessary step in our entire spiritual development!

Regards,
Mark Sandrock
--

BITNET:   sandrock@uiucscs	        Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Internet: sandrock@aries.scs.uiuc.edu   Chemical Sciences Computing Services
Voice:    217-244-0561		        505 S. Mathews Ave., Urbana, IL  61801

kavanagh@acc.stolaf.edu (11/06/90)

Good question!  I'm glad you asked because he who seeks finds etc...
I'm brand new to this newsgroup (about 20 minutes) and I don't profess
to have all the answers to life's difficult questions but I can tell
you what I do know for sure.

The question basically is this: How could an omnipotent good God allow evil?

This question is as old as the hills but I believe it does have an answer.

God is in the business of raising perfected sons.  The whole purpose of all
creation is relationships.  Sounds gushy doesn't it?  That's right, God wants
to have a personal relationship all of us.  God Himself is even a relationship,
the Holy Trinity.  And God made us in His image and we are made up of three
parts as well: body, soul, and spirit.  The whole Bible can be seen as a love
story from Genesis to Revelations.   

Now let's take a look at a couple of God's characters.  First of all He loves 
us beyond our comprehension and no matter what we do He cannot stop loving us.
Second of all He is Holy and Just.  He must punish sin.  He can't get around
it.  Every sin commited in the universe must be punished, it is part of His 
charater.

So God is in a paradox.  He loves us but every one of us has turned away from
Him and given Him the cold shoulder, so to speak.  This is where Jesus fits in.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only son so that whosever believes
in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life"(John 3:16-the best I could
do from memory.)  There can be no forgiveness without the shedding of blood.
And God Himself, in the incarnate Jesus, shed His blood for us and all we have
to do is repent and accept Jesus's payment for our sin.

So what does this have to do with the problem of evil?  God had to give us free
will so that we could choose to love Him.  God did not want to have robots in 
His Kingdom.  Personal I have a tough time loving hardware as well.  And the sad
truth is that every one of us have choosen the route of sin and death.  God has
to respect what we choose-if he is to raise perfected children.  

I hope this helps a little.  The best thing to do is to cry out to God for
yourself.  He'll answer.  God is for us and He desires that all men could
come to know the truth.

Fifteen words sum up the whole Gosple of Jesus:

God loves us.  We are sinners.  Jesus paid for our sins.  We must accept Jesus.

Keep seeking and praying, you will find.  As one who knows Jesus, I know there 
are some basic things that you can know for sure.  It takes a step in faith
but you will find your foot stepping on solid ground!

With many prayers, as I know it is God who ministers, not me, God bless!

Darren Kavanagh
kavanagh@nic.stolaf.edu

PS.  I may sound patriarchal at times but when I say men etc.. I mean all
of mankind.   

mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) (11/06/90)

In article <Nov.2.04.03.20.1990.4498@porthos.rutgers.edu> dg@pallio.uucp (David Goodenough) writes:
>duncant@mbunix.mitre.org (Thomson) asks:
>> I read a story in the news yesterday about the killing  of a politician
>> and his family in Lebanon. [nasty story deleted]
>
It strikes me that those who ask the question "why does God
allow suffering" have not the faintest idea of what
Christianity is all about. They are, perhaps, victims of that
"God as a marketing trick", God presented as a cuddly Teddy
Bear, rather than God as a Father who is to be feared as well
as loved about which I complained in a previous posting.

The most central belief of Christianity is that God was made man
and suffered appallingly as a man. Christianity says that
God is with us in our suffering - when we suffer, God suffers.
Pain and suffering are part of God's plan for the universe, most
centrally because without pain there is no joy. We go through pain and
suffering as children because it is the only way to emerge as adults
(we all know examples of people who have had extraordinarily
sheltered childhoods, and have as a result never really
grown up) - but if we are fortunate we have strong parents to
pull us through. In the same way, God our Father pulls us
through the suffering we endure here on earth.


Matthew Huntbach

kevinc@sequent.uucp (Kevin Closson) (11/08/90)

In article <Nov.5.04.49.12.1990.15348@athos.rutgers.edu> gschwend@smdvx1.intel.com (Greg Schwendinger) writes:
>In article <Oct.25.02.58.11.1990.28720@athos.rutgers.edu> duncant@mbunix.mitre.org (Thomson) writes:
>>I don't know if you'll want to discuss this on your group, but I am really
>
>Might as well.
>
>>I read a story in the news yesterday about the killing  of a politician
>>and his family in Lebanon.  Gunmen came into his house, and shot him a few
>
>(more gruesome details...)
>
>>My question is this:  How can events such as these be reconciled with
>>the christian notion of a god who is both omnipotent and benevolent?
>
>In this case, the answer seems to lie in the freedom of choice that we


  This notion of "freedom of choice" is an awful cute line,  but come on.
Who had the freedom of choice here?


>are imperfect and so is their use of this gift.  Here the gunmen seem to
>have chosen immorally.

  Yeah,  and the question is still without an answer.  The gunmen chose....

  What about the dead?  Is God willing to let their lives go to see if the
 gunmen will make the choice  -  he knows they wont?  What a game! 

  A good friend of our family was just diagnosed with cancer all over her
 body.  This woman has lived an unbelievably devout life.  Yeah, yeah Job
 had it rough.  No time to be trite here.  The account of Job's problems
 is a nice example of how noble hindsight is!  The woman I know has to face
 her family after each Chemo-torture and uphold her mind-set that this is
 the "Will of God".  Give me a break!  Right,  some Denominations will con-
 tend that this is the work of Satan,  as God has permitted it!  What a deal.
 God creates the life of this woman,  knows from birth that He will eventually
 allow Satan to torture her and kill her?  Or will the prayers of all involved
 change his mind?  

 

--
Kevin Closson
Sequent Technical Support
Database/Layered Products              x83072

arm@Neon.Stanford.EDU (Alexander d Macalalad) (11/09/90)

In article <Nov.7.21.29.09.1990.13190@athos.rutgers.edu> kevinc@sequent.uucp (Kevin Closson) writes:
>  A good friend of our family was just diagnosed with cancer all over her
> body.  This woman has lived an unbelievably devout life.  Yeah, yeah Job
> had it rough.  No time to be trite here.  The account of Job's problems
> is a nice example of how noble hindsight is!  The woman I know has to face
> her family after each Chemo-torture and uphold her mind-set that this is
> the "Will of God".  Give me a break!  Right,  some Denominations will con-
> tend that this is the work of Satan,  as God has permitted it!  What a deal.
> God creates the life of this woman,  knows from birth that He will eventually
> allow Satan to torture her and kill her?  Or will the prayers of all involved
> change his mind?  

Kevin, I hear a lot of anger and cynicism in your post, and if I had the 
picture of God which you paint, I would be angry as well.  I think, though,
that you are missing the point of the book of Job.  I read Job to mean that
it is all right to feel anger and betrayal against God.  That is how we are
built, and that is a part of being human.  What it condemns is the response
of denial, where we cover up our feelings with phrases like "I must have
done something wrong to deserve this" or "this is the will of God".  Now it
might be true, but it is no reason mask our feelings.  Look closely at whom
God punishes and whom He rewards.

Everyone will feel pain and suffering at some point in life, and everyone
will die.  There is no escape.  I don't mean to be trite, either, but who
said that life is fair?  Actually, I am happy that life isn't fair, since
we would otherwise be damned, for no one deserves salvation.  Pain and
suffering, just like any experience in the process of life, is an invitation
for us to deepen our relationship with God, and the book of Job shows how
this is true.  Only in acknowledging and offering up our suffering and our
consequent feelings can God enter into our lives and enrich us with His
grace.

I have started working with people living with HIV disease, and I am 
continually struck by how much life some of them have, and in talking with
them, I can see how God has worked in them as they learn to accept their
disease and continue living.  They have many lessons on living that they
could and do teach others.  I am sure that this is true with other terminal
patients as well.  Now some people's conception of God and spirituality may
be very different from the traditional Christian conception, and indeed
some of the most spiritual people I know are self-described atheists.  But
each person has a unique relationship with God, and no matter what the
relationship is, if it is approached with an open mind and an eye towards
truth and not denial, then God can enter into that relationship.  Witnessing
His work and His healing firsthand and through others only strengthens my
faith in Him.

Alex Macalalad

vvrcd@helios.lerc.nasa.gov (Robert C. Dibacco (SVER)) (11/09/90)

> 
> 
> 
>  A good friend of our family was just diagnosed with cancer all over her
> body.  This woman has lived an unbelievably devout life.  Yeah, yeah Job
> had it rough.  No time to be trite here.  The account of Job's problems
> is a nice example of how noble hindsight is!  The woman I know has to face
> her family after each Chemo-torture and uphold her mind-set that this is
> the "Will of God".  Give me a break!  Right,  some Denominations will con-
> tend that this is the work of Satan,  as God has permitted it!  What a deal.
> God creates the life of this woman,  knows from birth that He will eventually
> allow Satan to torture her and kill her?  Or will the prayers of all involved
> change his mind?  
> 
> 
> 
>--
>Kevin Closson
>Sequent Technical Support
>Database/Layered Products              x83072
I just have a comment to the above.  I had a sister who battled two long years
with breast cancer that eventually spread to her liver.  Talk about a heart
breaking experience to see a woman of 38 with a young daughter and a loving
husband wither away.  My only consolation through this was that she accepted the
lord and I know she is in heaven now in peace.  Despite that we are still
missing her and my parents are devastated as well and they are not young.  No
I don't like that this happened and my humanness (sp?) does not want to let go
and I still cry inside when I see my niece who does not have a mommy anymore
but I know that Dottie is happy now and we will pick up the pieces.  Maybe 
that is what it took for her to make a full commitment I do not know but I 
must believe that God will still use this happening in my families lives to
bring more of them into the fold.

=============================================================================
Bob DiBacco (Sverdrup Technology)
NASA Lewis Research Center
vvrcd@mars.lerc.nasa.gov
Phone (216) 891-2222
=============================================================================

kevinc@sequent.uucp (Kevin Closson) (11/10/90)

In article <Nov.9.00.48.31.1990.28988@athos.rutgers.edu> vvrcd@helios.lerc.nasa.gov (Robert C. Dibacco (SVER)) writes:


>    [   text deleted  ] ...  I had a sister who battled two long years
>with breast cancer that eventually spread to her liver.  Talk about a heart
>breaking experience to see a woman of 38 with a young daughter and a loving
>husband wither away.  

 ...

 but I must believe that God will still use this happening in my families lives to bring more of them into the fold.



 THIS is unbelievable!  Rather costly evangelism,  don't you think?


--
Kevin Closson
Sequent Technical Support
Database/Layered Products              x83072

garyh@crash.cts.com (Gary Hipp) (11/12/90)

In article <Nov.10.07.31.43.1990.24929@athos.rutgers.edu> kevinc@sequent.uucp (Kevin Closson) writes:
>In article <Nov.9.00.48.31.1990.28988@athos.rutgers.edu> vvrcd@helios.lerc.nasa.gov (Robert C. Dibacco (SVER)) writes:
>
>
>>    [   text deleted  ] ...  I had a sister who battled two long years
>>with breast cancer that eventually spread to her liver.  Talk about a heart
>>breaking experience to see a woman of 38 with a young daughter and a loving
>>husband wither away.  
>
> ...
>
> but I must believe that God will still use this happening in my families lives to bring more of them into the fold.
>
>
>
> THIS is unbelievable!  Rather costly evangelism,  don't you think?

What ever gave you the idea that it was cheap?  If anyone gives you
the idea that being a Christian is a life where all your problems are
solved and you will live in complete bliss, they are telling you a big
lie.  Christians WILL suffer more than those who don't believe because
the process of being separated for God's work is trying and sometimes
painfull.  I leave you with this,

And He was saying to them all, if anyone wishes to come after Me, let
him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.  for
whoever wishes to save his life shall lose it, but whoever loses his
life for My sake, he is the one who will save it.  for what is a man
profited if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits
himself?--Luke 9:23-25.