brians@hpcljms.cup.hp.com (Brian Sullivan) (11/08/90)
I was recently discussing evolution vs. creationism with a group
of fanatical christians who believed the Bible word for word, including
the Flood and all that. So, I posted this response to them in which
I tried to suggest that they should first study their Bible and change
some of their religious holidays instead of attacking the scientist
who propose that evolution is true and creationism is bunk.
For all of the religious believers out there who question the "scientific
method" and believe the Bible literally maybe you should look a the
current religious mis-beliefs that occur today.
1. Christmas, one of the most celebrated holidays of the Christian
religion should not be celebrated in December. The stories in
the Bible are quite detailed and speak of Mary and Joesph going
to the town of their Joesph's familiy for the Census and to pay
their taxes to the Roman Empire. The history of the Roman Empire
indicates that this took place in April or May. This is more in
line with the shepherd being in the fields when Jesus was born.
During December the shepherds don't have much to do in the fields.
If you want to celebrate the birth of Jesus I would suggest that
April 15th would be an good approximation of his birth date and
has some modern relevance to the historical events surrounding his
birth.
2. The God of Genesis rested on the seventh day. His commandment was
to keep this day holy. One every calendar that I have access to
Saturday is the seventh day. If you are one to take the Bible
literally I suggest that you worship on Saturday since this would
be better protection from God's wrath than Sunday, literally the
day on the Sun, which was the day which pagan's gave worship to the
"sun".
As I see it, the early Church manipulated the calendar to suite their
needs. Many pagan religions at that time had a major religious holiday
during the winter solstice. These religions had as their celebration
the rebirth of the sun as a major religious event. During the winter
solstice the days stop getting shorter and shorter and started getting
longer and longer. The early christian church placed their celebration
of the birth of thier son right on top of this important pagan holiday
to replace this pagan holiday. Likewise with Easter. From all that
I can tell the early christians would just about do anything to increase
the size of their flock and outright lies from them do not suprise me
at all. Much the same a the charlatans that I see on TV today.
-- Brian --
[The date of Christmas is really a non-issue. Nobody claims that
Christmas is Christ's actual birthday.
The day of worship has more behind it than meets the eye. First,
there are Christian groups that worship on Saturday, e.g. Seventh Day
Adventists. But most Christians do not follow the ceremonial portions
of the Law. You may have noticed that Christians do not follow kosher
laws and do lots of other things called for in the OT either. This
really goes back to the beginnings of Christianity, when there was a
heated internal debate over whether Gentiles who wanted to become
Christians should be circumcized and take on all of the obligations of
the Jewish Law. Jewish exegesis at that time (as now) was that the
Law is obligatory only for Jews, who have a special covenant with God.
So Gentile converts to Christianity were only required to keep to some
basic moral principles, but not to accept obedience to the Law. (This
discussion is described in Acts 15, so there is a clear Biblical basis
for the concept that the Law does not apply to Gentile Christians.
Paul's discusssion of the role of the Law in Romans and Galatians
might also be cited.) The specific day of worship is normally not
considered to be one of those essential principles. There are some
nuances here on which there is no agreement, but what it comes down to
is that everybody agrees that we should worship regularly, but as we
are not Jews, there is no law that requires this to be on the seventh
day. It appears that Sunday was chosen in commemoration of Christ's
resurrection. The Christian term is the Lord's Day. This is more
obvious in languages other than English. In Russian the day is called
Resurrection. I believe some of the Romance languages use words that
sound similar to the Latin root for Lord.
I don't see anything wrong with locating Christian holidays on top of
traditional pagan holidays, where there is no particular reason to
choose one day or the other. This is almost certainly the case for
Christmas. The connection of Easter with pagan roots is fairly
indirect. Easter is a commemoration of the Resurrection. Unlike
Christmas -- where we don't know the date of Jesus birth -- we do know
the date of his death and resurrection. It was at the Jewish
Passover. So Easter is based on Passover, though the exact way the
lunar calendar is used is slightly different. It has certainly taken
on some aspects of spring fertility worship in certain cultures, but
as far as I can tell Easter eggs and other specific associations in
the U.S. are not part of the original Christian holiday (unlike
Christmas, which does seem to have been scheduled on top of a pagan
Roman festival from the beginning).
This argument is one that we have every Christmas and every Easter,
and frankly I'm beginning to get a bit tired of it.
--clh]walsh@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com (11/09/90)
In article <Nov.7.22.09.27.1990.16269@athos.rutgers.edu>, brians@hpcljms.cup.hp.com (Brian Sullivan) writes: > > For all of the religious believers out there who question the "scientific > method" and believe the Bible literally maybe you should look a the > current religious mis-beliefs that occur today. > > 1. Christmas, one of the most celebrated holidays of the Christian > religion should not be celebrated in December. The stories in > the Bible are quite detailed and speak of Mary and Joesph going > to the town of their Joesph's familiy for the Census and to pay > their taxes to the Roman Empire. The history of the Roman Empire > indicates that this took place in April or May. This is more in > line with the shepherd being in the fields when Jesus was born. > During December the shepherds don't have much to do in the fields. > If you want to celebrate the birth of Jesus I would suggest that > April 15th would be an good approximation of his birth date and > has some modern relevance to the historical events surrounding his > birth. > Like the moderator said, nobody i holds this is the actual day of Christ's birth. It's just the day we celebrate it. I heard that the earliest Christmas we know about was in the middle of January or thereabouts, and it was moved to Dec.25 to counteract pagan Saturnalia (this happened in the 4th century, i think). The Armenian church said they didn't feel the need to move it because there was no Saturnalia in Armenia so they still celebrate Christmas in January. The Western Church also moved All Saints Day and All Souls day to Nov 1 & 2 to combat Holloween (in America it looks like Holloween won), and even before then St John the Baptist day was moved to June 24 to replace pagan Summer Solstice festivals. This doesn't strike me as dishonest, people were taking holidays and celebrating anyway, the Church just tried to give them something Christian to celebrate. ando.
rr2g@rhonda.ce.Virginia.EDU (Rhonda R. Gaines) (11/10/90)
[In response to the discussion of celebrating Christmas and Easter, wherein it is pointed out that the Christian celebrations are not pagan. --clh] The main problem I have always had with this is: *why* will you make up holidays and won't celebrate the holidays that God himself has ordained. I believe I could see a little more sense in having a celebration for Jesus' birth if the ordained holidays were celebrated also i.e. passover/feast of unleaven bread, feast of trumpets, feast of booths, etc. This goes not only for Christmas but *all* man-made holidays. Why is such a big deal made over something that God had no part in establishing but what He did establish people overlook it as "just another day"? -rhonda -- Rhonda Gaines | University of Virginia phone: 804-924-6265 | Thornton Hall bitnet: gaines@virginia.bitnet | Applied Mechanics Program internet: gaines@virginia.edu | Charlottesville, VA 22903-2442 [The quick answer is "because we aren't Jews". That is, the holidays specifically established in the Bible are all in the OT, and thus are seen by most Christians are part of the "ceremonial Law". --clh]
rr2g@rhonda.ce.Virginia.EDU (Rhonda R. Gaines) (11/13/90)
[Rhonda R. Gaines asks why we make up holidays and won't celebrate the holidays that God himself ordained. I responded that it is because they are part of the ceremonial Law, which is not binding on Christians. --clh] I am not a Jew either, but hebrew pentecostal and follow what the bible says from Genesis to Revelations. If you believe that the OT was basically given to the Jews since the basic content is what you call the "ceremonial" law then you should not acknowledge the OT just as the Jews don't acknowledge the NT but then how would you understand most of what goes on in the NT if it were not for the background of the OT. Remember the bible says "...Eat the whole roll...". Also, Acts 28:23 says: "And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ till evening." -- Rhonda Gaines | University of Virginia phone: 804-924-6265 | Thornton Hall bitnet: gaines@virginia.bitnet | Applied Mechanics Program internet: gaines@virginia.edu | Charlottesville, VA 22903-2442 [I didn't say that Christians reject the OT. The OT is an account of God's interaction with his people. As such we can learn much about God and his will for us from it, and with care in exposition, we can learn much about Christ. But not everything in it is addressed to every person. The prophets gave specific commands to specific people. The Law of Moses is not described as general laws for mankind, but as the definition of a covenant with Israel. In Acts 15 we see a discussion of whether the Law should apply to Gentile Christians, and the conclusion is that it should not. The same idea lies behind the discussion of the Law in Paul's letters. It is not rejecting the OT to note that we are not part of the covenant with Moses described there. --clh]