hall@vice.ico.tek.com (Hal Lillywhite) (11/09/90)
In article <Nov.7.22.34.10.1990.17431@athos.rutgers.edu> wagner@karazm.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) writes: >Now, to try to answer your question more directly, in Matthew 28:18-20 >(The Great Commision) Jesus mentions baptism, together with teaching, >as a means of making disciples. It is interesting to note that he >mentions baptism before teaching. Well, it's true he mentions teaching after baptism. However he also mentions teaching before baptism, teaching is mentioned twice: ...Teach all nations, baptizing them...teaching them... It seems to me this means teach people enough that they believe, baptize them, then teach them the rest of what they should know.
wagner@karazm.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) (11/14/90)
In article <Nov.9.00.50.31.1990.29102@athos.rutgers.edu> hall@vice.ico.tek.com (Hal Lillywhite) writes: [I wrote:] >>Now, to try to answer your question more directly, in Matthew 28:18-20 >>(The Great Commision) Jesus mentions baptism, together with teaching, >>as a means of making disciples. It is interesting to note that he >>mentions baptism before teaching. >Well, it's true he mentions teaching after baptism. However he also >mentions teaching before baptism, teaching is mentioned twice: >...Teach all nations, baptizing them...teaching them... In the NIV I read: "Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I will be with you always, to the very end of the age." Hal quoted the King James version, which says "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them... I suspect, although I don't know, that the word translated 'teach' in the KJV and 'make disciples', in the NIV is the verb 'didaskein' (sorry, ASCII doesn't seem to know greek) which I ran into while studying 1 Tim 2:11-15. This word means to be a master teacher, who makes disciples. So (presuming I am correct regarding the Greek) really both translations are correct, although the NIV may be a little more precise. Of course normally in Greek society the master teacher would make disciples for himself, as did the Greek philosophers. But Christ's apostle's were commanded to make disciples for 'The Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit'. It was interesting for me to note that in Kretszman's 'Popular Commentary', a rather stodgy, voluminous (four volumes of about 670 pages each), and perhaps even crusty old Lutheran commentary, the KJV text is given, but in an aside regarding infant baptism, he gives his own translation: 'Make disciples of all nations'. So I gather that this translation is the preferred one among Lutherans. Evidently the NIV committee, which included a number (perhaps a majority) of non-Lutherans, agreed on this point. So Hal appears to be correct in saying that the meaning 'teach' is included with 'make disciples'. However I would still have to dispute that the meaning of the passage is: first make disciples, then baptize, then teach some more, but that Christ commands us to make disciples of all nations, as a general directive, and then tells us how to do this: baptize, and teach. For the making of a disciple is a life long process. It does not end with conversion. Of these means for making disciples, Christ mentions baptism first. Does this alone prove anything? Perhaps not. But it does indicate something, and there is more to be said on this issue. However if it is to come from me, it will have to wait a while. David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran. My opinions and beliefs on this matter are disclaimed by The University of Houston. [The word is *matheteusate*, which is a verbal form related to *mathetes*, which can mean pupil, apprentice, disciple, or adherent. The shorter Gingrich lexicon gives both "make a disciple of" and "teach" as possible translations. The only other occurence of *matheteusate* in the NT in its transitive form is Acts 14:21. In its intransitive form it means "to be or become a pupil or disciple." My impression is that in this context the correct translation is "make disciples of", and that the meaning is specifically Christian disciples. The Greek word *mathetes* can have a range of possible meanings, but at least in Acts came to take on a meaning nearly synonmyous with Christian (at least according to Gingrich). Based on the context in Mat. it looks to me like it's that specific meaning that is being used here. --clh]