ASC105@psuvm.psu.edu (11/19/90)
In many religions, how holy a person is is determined by the virtue of
his position. That is, the higher up a person is in leadership of the
religion, the more holy he is considered to be.
However, the bible says something different about holiness. The key to
someone or something being holy is God's PRESENCE. Holiness cannot be
earned by reading books or going through the motions in a church.
When a person accepts Christ in his heart and proclaims Him as Lord, his
heart gets changed. His heart is his spirit, the real person. The soul is
the mind, and the body is just an outer covering. The soul and body
REMAIN THE SAME when a person gets saved. ONLY the spirit is changed and
this is done by God, not by us. That's what the new creature is. This is
what it means to be born-again. What defines a Christian is this: that
his heart is changed as a result of accepting Christ.
Now, this heart is holy, because if it wasn't holy and God puts his Holy
Spirit within it, it would kill the person. The Holy Spirit resides in
these reborn spirits.
God communicates most of the time through these changed spirits. We have
no right to ask for visions from God. We also have no right to ask for
voices to guide us. Since the Holy Spirit resides in these new reborn
spirits, supernatural guidance should come from within us. It shouldn't
come from outer voices or visions of Mary because the world is where Satan
operates. "Greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world."
-1st John 4:4.
"For as many as are led by the Sprit of God, they are the sons of God."
-Romans 8:14. This does NOT say "For as many as are led by FLIPPING COINS..."
Guidance should come from within... from our inner being which is more in tune
with God than our mind, if you are saved.
Your spirit will not tell you to do something wrong nor will it tell
you to do something out of line with God's Word. "Whosoever is born of God
doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he CANNOT sin,
because he is born of God."-1 John 4:9 This is speaking about the heart.
The reason a Christian can sin is because he is getting guidance from the
mind or outside world or letting his flesh rule. All the while, the heart
is weeping because it knows God's commandments. If you can't tell whether
your heart weeps or not when you sin then you are either backslidden or
YOU ARE NOT SAVED.
In Christ Jesus's Name,
Allen S. Cheung
(Jesus is Lord)wagner@karazm.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) (11/20/90)
In article <Nov.19.03.39.18.1990.1406@athos.rutgers.edu> ASC105@psuvm.psu.edu writes: >Holiness cannot be >earned by reading books or going through the motions in a church. You are correct in saying holiness cannot be earned. But the Holy Spirit does work faith and sanctification (becoming holy) through the means of the written word, and the sacraments of baptism and the Lord's Supper: "Faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ." Romans 10:17 "For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of Gop. .... Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, now that you have tasted that the Lord is good." "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also -- not by the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God." 1 Peter 3:21 "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word," Ephesians 5: 25,26 "He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit," Titus 3:5 "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to God's elect ... who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the santifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:" 1 Peter 1:1,2 [This is also a good passage on the Trinity, BTW] "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. You forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." John 6:53-58. Thus 'reading books' particulary the Bible, does feed our faith, and taking part in the sacraments [going through the motions?] does the same. And all of these work sanctification [becoming holy] in the believer. > When a person accepts Christ in his heart and proclaims Him as Lord, his >heart gets changed. His heart is his spirit, the real person. The soul is >the mind, and the body is just an outer covering. The soul and body >REMAIN THE SAME when a person gets saved. ONLY the spirit is changed and >this is done by God, not by us. This distinction between the soul and the spirit seems rather novel and strange. > Now, this heart is holy, because if it wasn't holy and God puts his Holy >Spirit within it, it would kill the person. The Holy Spirit resides in >these reborn spirits. This, and most of the rest of the article, denies that the sinful nature is still present in the Christian. But Paul writes: "We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me...." Romans 7:14ff Note that Paul speaks as a Christian. If he did not have the renewal of the Holy Spirit, he could not even 'want to' do what is good. For the unbeliever, there is no such struggle. He is wholely owned by Satan, and the Holy Spirit is not within him to contend with the sinful nature. David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran "I walk in danger all the way. The tho't shall never leave me That Satan, who has marked his prey, Is plotting to deceive me. This Foe with hidden snares May seize me unawares If e'er I fail to watch and pray. I walk in danger all the way. "I walk with angels all the way, They shield me and befriend me; All Satan's pow'r is held at bay When heav'nly hosts attend me; They are my sure defense All fear and sorrow hence! Unharmed by foes do what they may, I walk with angels all the way. "I walk with Jesus all the way, His guidance never fails me; Within His wounds I find a stay When Satan's power assails me; And by his footsteps led, My path I safely tread. In spite of ills that treaten may, I walk with Jesus all the way." --Jeg gaar i Fare, hvor jeg gaar, selected verses --Hans A. Brorson, 1734 My opinions and beliefs on this matter are disclaimed by The University of Houston.
garyh@crash.cts.com (Gary Hipp) (11/23/90)
In article <Nov.19.23.38.55.1990.24664@athos.rutgers.edu> wagner@karazm.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) writes: >In article <Nov.19.03.39.18.1990.1406@athos.rutgers.edu> ASC105@psuvm.psu.edu writes: > >>Holiness cannot be >>earned by reading books or going through the motions in a church. > >You are correct in saying holiness cannot be earned. But the Holy Spirit >does work faith and sanctification (becoming holy) through the means of >the written word, and the sacraments of baptism and the Lord's Supper: Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems that there is another side to this coin. I do not deny that holiness cannot be obtained other than first through the grace of God thru Jesus Christ, but that does not eliminate our responsibility either. Not that it is earned, but commanded. "As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; for it is written, You shall be holy, for I am holy." 1Pet.1:14-16. Becoming holy is a process of cleansing (which is part of sanctification). We are first cleansed through the ACT of salvation. It is then our responsibility, being freed from the power of sin, to use that freedom to separate ourselves from evil, thereby perfecting holiness within ourselves. IMHO, baptism and partaking in the Lord's Supper are acts of obedience, but no more important than a daily striving to live our lives in accordance with Christian principles. "Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. >> Now, this heart is holy, because if it wasn't holy and God puts his Holy >>Spirit within it, it would kill the person. The Holy Spirit resides in >>these reborn spirits. I'm with you on this one, David. I don't agree either. As I said, becoming holy is a process gained through living and our response to life's circumstances. When we (saved Christians) act and respond in such a way that we are not obedient, we grieve the Holy Spirit. Therefore, it is possible to be unholy while having the Holy Spirit living within us. However, this is NOT recommended. Gary Hipp
jow@pacbell.com (Jeff Westman) (11/23/90)
In article <Nov.19.03.39.18.1990.1406@athos.rutgers.edu> ASC105@psuvm.psu.edu writes: | ... We have | no right to ask for visions from God. We also have no right to ask for | voices to guide us. Since the Holy Spirit resides in these new reborn | spirits, supernatural guidance should come from within us. It shouldn't | come from outer voices or visions of Mary because the world is where Satan | operates. ... Allen, I have a real problem with the way you have worded this, so maybe some clarification would be in order. You talk about "reborn spirits" as if our spirit was just flying in the cosmos, waiting for a body of a newborn to inhabit (sounds like some Eastern thought, huh?). The part about "super- natural guidance coming from inside us" ..... What do you mean *FROM* us. If you mean it should ORIGINATE from us, then I would question this. We are human, prone to sin. Just like the favorite Hymn, 'prone to wonder, prone to leave the One I love'. Allen, we're sinful creatures, although forgiven ones. While the Holy Spirit lives in us, we have to be careful "whose voice" we are listening to. It may not be your own... It may not be God's ... Satan is powerful. He is an angel in light; he is also super- natural (be careful in who you are listening to!). | Your spirit will not tell you to do something wrong nor will it tell | you to do something out of line with God's Word. "Whosoever is born of God | doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he CANNOT sin, | because he is born of God."-1 John 4:9 This is speaking about the heart. Allen, the implication is that if you are a true, trusting, following believer then you cannot *CONTINUE* to fall into sin as in your prior life without Christ. Remember that God sees us through His Son Jesus. Since your in 1 John, flip over a few pages to the left. Look at chapter 1, verse 7: "But if we walk [daily walk] in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all [every] sin" Now verse 8: "[But] if we claim to be WITHOUT sin, we DECEIVE ourselves and the truth is not in us..." Verse 10: "If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place i our lives" (NIV, emphasis mine) Remember that John wrote this to BELIEVERS (see 2:1). I.E.: BELIEVERS CAN AND DO SIN. Now go a few pages to the right, chapter 5. Look at verses 18 and 19: "We know that anyone born of God does not CONTINUE to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him. We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one" (NIV, emphasis mine) What about Romans 8:9: Paul, talking with the Romans and contrasting the two natures, said "You, however, are controlled NOT by the sinful nature [implies that we STILL have one] but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of GOD lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ." (NIV, emphasis mine) Lastly, compare James 1:13 and following: "When tempted, no one should say, 'God is tempting me.' For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his OWN evil desire, he is *dragged off* and enticed. Then, after desire [which originates in the mind] has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death." (NIV, emphasis mine) You see, Christians DO sin. It's the matter of a continuing a practice of sin that is not glorifying to God that demonstrates our lack of commitment to our faith. | ... If you can't tell whether | your heart weeps or not when you sin then you are either backslidden or | YOU ARE NOT SAVED. Okay, here's a question for you. Suppose that I'm in a certain situation and I am contemplating if I *want* to sin or not; whether I want to glorify God and turn away from a sinful situation, or temporarily please myself. Now, suppose I fall into the temptation. And I sin. Does this mean that I am NOT saved? Maybe you mean 'backslidden' -- for an hour or two (if the latter is the case, then I suppose ALL Christians "backslide" almost daily!) | (Jesus is Lord) Always was, and ALWAYS will be (emphasis... mine) -- Jeff