ASC105@psuvm.psu.edu (11/14/90)
There are very numerous occasions where people refer to the thorn
in the flesh in 2nd Corinthians 12 as an illness or ailment. This
causes doubt to some as to whether or not God wants His children healed.
The "thorn in the flesh" in the New Testament is a parallel to
Numbers 33:55, Judges 2:3, Joshua 23:13. These Old Testament verses all
mention a "thorn" in some kind of flesh. These thorns were TEMPTATIONS
not illnesses. The New Testament verse in 2nd Corinthians 12 is not
clear until you read the Old Testament. I think Paul was refering to
the Old Testament when he used the word "thorn".
Is it God's will to heal us? YES! Why? Because of the explanation
given in Hebrews 8:6 that we are under a BETTER covenant. The NEW
COVENANT has been in effect ever since Jesus presented Himself as a
perfect sacrifice. It was not only for taking away of sins, but also
for redemption from sickness -- Isaiah 53:4-5. Christians are under
this New Covenant that Job wasn't.
There are things that can block healing, but God is patient with us.
Someone may actually recieve healing even though he may have an idol
that he didn't notice. But this will most probably be dealt with
eventually in the person's life. A person doesn't have to be totally
right with God to get healed. I don't know of anyone who is...
In Jesus's Name,
Allen S. Cheung
(Jesus is Lord)root@mamia.UCAR.EDU (Sys Admin) (11/23/90)
In article <Nov.14.03.59.40.1990.25592@athos.rutgers.edu> ASC105@psuvm.psu.edu writes: > Is it God's will to heal us? YES! Why? Because of the explanation >given in Hebrews 8:6 that we are under a BETTER covenant. The NEW >COVENANT has been in effect ever since Jesus presented Himself as a >perfect sacrifice. It was not only for taking away of sins, but also >for redemption from sickness -- Isaiah 53:4-5. Christians are under >this New Covenant that Job wasn't. > There are things that can block healing, but God is patient with us. > In Jesus's Name, > Allen S. Cheung > (Jesus is Lord) The problem I have with this (along with other evangelicals like Everett Koop) is that while God does heal, there is always a tendency on the part of those believing the above to treat those who fail to be healed as second-class Christians. It's yet another form of blaming the poor victim. Everyone in this life eventually sickens and dies. If it were God's will to heal always, this would not universally be so. In addition, those who have lost bodyparts to disease or accident do not regrow them. If it is really God's will to heal, then by such circular theology either all such individuals don't want to accept God's healing, or the job is just too big for Him. Obviously, that's not so. When faulty theology runs up against reality, something has to give. Not God, but some human misconceptions about Him should.
timh@ide.com (Tim Hoogasian) (11/26/90)
In article <Nov.14.03.59.40.1990.25592@athos.rutgers.edu> ASC105@psuvm.psu.edu writes: > >The New Testament verse in 2nd Corinthians 12 is not >clear until you read the Old Testament. I think Paul was refering to >the Old Testament when he used the word "thorn". I don't agree, because Paul refers to his struggle with sin in other areas of his letters ("Who will save me from this body of death?", etc.) Though Paul never tells us specifically what his 'thorn in the flesh' is, in his letter to the Galatians, it would appear that he has some form of eye trouble, since he talks about how (if they could) the Galatians would have gladly taken out their eyes and given them to him. > Is it God's will to heal us? YES! Fair enough, though obviously we're not all healed. And presumably this should account not only for physical healing, but emotional/psychological trauma as well. I certainly agree that by not asking for God to heal us, we are implicitly doubting His desire (and capacity?) to do the job. But it's important to realize that He doesn't always do what we ask, for His own reasons. (If He did, I know many situations in my own life that would be very very very different! ;-( ) > There are things that can block healing, but God is patient with us. Careful that we don't turn this into a "I must be sinning pretty badly, or I don't have enough faith, since He hasn't healed me..." argument. >A person doesn't have to be totally right with God to get healed. I sure wish I knew what the criteria were... (other than just 'His Will') in Him, -- Tim | ARPA: timh@ide.com Hoogasian | UUCP: sun!ide!timh (415) 543-0900 =============================================================================== #define DISCLAIMER "Are you nuts? I don't represent anyone, let alone myself!"
marlatt@ncar.ucar.edu (MARLATT STUART WARREN) (11/27/90)
In article <Nov.25.20.21.50.1990.25146@athos.rutgers.edu> timh@ide.com (Tim Hoogasian) writes: >In article <Nov.14.03.59.40.1990.25592@athos.rutgers.edu> ASC105@psuvm.psu.edu writes: >> >>The New Testament verse in 2nd Corinthians 12 is not >>clear until you read the Old Testament. I think Paul was refering to >>the Old Testament when he used the word "thorn". > >I don't agree, because Paul refers to his struggle with sin in other >areas of his letters ("Who will save me from this body of death?", etc.) >Though Paul never tells us specifically what his 'thorn in the flesh' is, >in his letter to the Galatians, it would appear that he has some form of >eye trouble, since he talks about how (if they could) the Galatians would >have gladly taken out their eyes and given them to him. I have also heard some pretty strong arguments to attribute Paul's "thorn" to be a group of Jews who followed him around, spreading a teaching that Gentile Christians _must_ obey the Jewish laws. I.e., that Christ's death was not sufficient - His death + the law was. Much of Galatians is a rebuttal to this view. One item of note: most of the Scripture is reasonably plain on important points. The fact that Paul does not precisely identify this thorn would indicate that the identification is not crucial. Probably Paul did not identify the thorn since this would probably lead to an incorrect focus on this item. Rather, he leaves it open. Hence, rather than knowing that His grace is sufficient for eye problems, we know that His grace is sufficient for the more generic "thorn." > >> Is it God's will to heal us? YES! > >Fair enough, though obviously we're not all healed. And presumably this >should account not only for physical healing, but emotional/psychological >trauma as well. I certainly agree that by not asking for God to heal us, >we are implicitly doubting His desire (and capacity?) to do the job. But >it's important to realize that He doesn't always do what we ask, for His >own reasons. (If He did, I know many situations in my own life that would >be very very very different! ;-( ) > More importantly, it is God's will that we are obediant to Him. We are commanded to pray for the sick. So we pray - after that, it is in His hands. My prayers can't so much as heal a headache - but I am commanded to pray. I agree - sometimes (maybe even most of the time) we don't see a healing (at least not an instantaneous healing). Sometime we do. I don't know why - but that does not mean I shouldn't pray. Someday I hope to know more - hopefully, I will ultimately have the answer. Till then, I will seek His face, study, pray. Stuart W. Marlatt It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, If is the glory of kings to seek a matter out.
jeff@oak.circa.ufl.edu (Jeff Halley) (11/29/90)
RE:
>More importantly, it is God's will that we are obediant to Him.
Stuart, that is so true. Only through complete obedience to Him (putting
Christ on the throne) can we ever have His best for our lives. True submission
involves giving Him _everything_ -- loving the Lord with all of our hearts,
minds... and that's hard to grasp for a lot of "prosperity" theologians (In
his two books _The_Seduction_of_Christianity_ and _Beyond_Seduction_, Dave Hunt
addresses some interesting points of contemporary or pop theology).
In Christ,
Jeff