[soc.religion.christian] Thoughts on guys with long hair?

lshaw@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (logan shaw) (11/27/90)

Well, being a guy with long hair, and having more curiousity than I perhaps
should, I thought I would pose this question for everybody:

 - Is there (in your opinion) anything at all wrong with guys having long
   hair?

 - If yes, explain how the _Bible_ supports your view.

Thanks,
   Logan
-- 
But there's more to this life than living and dying,\               Logan Shaw
More than just trying to make it through the day,    \lshaw@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
More to this life, more than these eyes alone can see,\    Amiga 2000, C= 1084
And there's more than this life alone can be.          \        GVP 40Q, 8-up!

[The relevant passage is I Cor 11:14: "Does not nature itself teach
you that for a man to wear long hair is degrading to him?"  Like most
of Paul's specific instructions, some Christians consider this binding
for all time and others consider it to be application only in its
original social context -- a debate we're not likely to settle.
--clh]

jwindley@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Jay Windley) (11/29/90)

lshaw@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (logan shaw) writes:

>Well, being a guy with long hair, and having more curiousity than I perhaps
>should, I thought I would pose this question for everybody:

> - Is there (in your opinion) anything at all wrong with guys having long
>   hair?

No.  I am Christian and I used to have long hair, but it became so much
of a bother to fend off Corinthians-quoters that I cut it.

> - If yes, explain how the _Bible_ supports your view.

>[The relevant passage is I Cor 11:14: "Does not nature itself teach
>you that for a man to wear long hair is degrading to him?"  Like most
>of Paul's specific instructions, some Christians consider this binding
>for all time and others consider it to be application only in its
>original social context -- a debate we're not likely to settle.
>--clh]

I firmly subscribe to the notion that Paul here was speaking to the
Corinthians, and only to the Corinthians.  The rest of the verse
"...but we have no such custom, neither the people of God (paraphrased)"
indicates to me that men's hair is purely a social issue.  Given
that Christ Himself is nearly always pictured in shoulder-length hair,
and that among the Jews themselves certain sects (e.g., Nazarites)
required men to wear long hair, I would  question any authoritative
pronunciation regarding men's hair length.

To address the passage noted by our moderator, I have formed the impression
while studying Paul's writings that he frequently commented on issues
not directly related to Christianity, and probably without divine authority.
I don't blame this on Paul, because it is evident that his statements come
in response to questions put to him by the various congregations.  One
can easily imagine disputes arising in these infant churches (especially
given the intricacies of pharasaical Judaism) on peripheral subjects, with
an appeal to Paul being the only apparent solution.  Rather than let the
churches continue in their contention, Paul offered his own opinion.

I think one must prayerfully ask God to help decide when Paul is speaking
as himself, or as the Lord's Apostle.
--
Jay Windley - CIS Dept. - Kansas State University
NET: jwindley@matt.ksu.ksu.edu  VOICE: (913) 532-5968  FAX: (913) 532-6722
USnail: 323 Seaton Hall, Kansas State Univ., Manhattan, KS 66506
Obligatory quote:  ""  -- /dev/null

rjb@akgua.att.com (Robert J Brown) (11/29/90)

> 
> [The relevant passage is I Cor 11:14: "Does not nature itself teach
> you that for a man to wear long hair is degrading to him?"  Like most
> of Paul's specific instructions, some Christians consider this binding
> for all time and others consider it to be application only in its
> original social context -- a debate we're not likely to settle.
> --clh]


Re Paul's comment.  I'm 44 years old and have hung out with nature
a lot and NO nature does not teach me that it is degrading.  What
have I missed ?  Does Paul mean in "long hair" in the Greek to mean
"fix your hair in an obvious (for your culture) effeminate way" ?
I can identify with this and it is in concert with his other 
comments about male effeminancy.  The Law also prohibits
transvestitism as such (can't spike the reference, sorry)

I will check out W.E. Vines New Testament Words on this if it is
in there.

Comment oh fearless moderator, plus others...please


BB(akgua!rjb)

ok@goanna.cs.rmit.oz.au (Richard A. O'Keefe) (11/29/90)

In article <Nov.27.03.41.12.1990.22909@athos.rutgers.edu>, lshaw@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (logan shaw) writes:
>  - Is there (in your opinion) anything at all wrong with guys having long
>    hair?
> [The relevant passage is I Cor. 11:14: "Does not nature itself teach
> you that for a man to wear long hair is degrading to him?"  Like most
> of Paul's specific instructions, some Christians consider this binding
> for all time and others consider it to be application only in its
> original social context -- a debate we're not likely to settle.
> --clh]

I think even the most literal-minded conservative would concede
that there _is_ such a thing as a Nazirite vow, Numbers 6:
    	The LORD told Moses to say to the Israelites:
	"When anyone, man or woman, makes a special vow dedicating
	himself to the LORD as a Nazirite, he is to abstain from wine
	and strong drink.  These he must not drink, nor anything made
	from the juice of grapes; nor is he to eat grapes, fresh or
	dried.  During the whole term of his vow he must eat nothing
	that comes from the vine, nothing whatever, skin or seed.
    -->	During the whole term of his vow, no razor is to touch his
	head; he must let his hair grow in long locks until he has
	completed the term of his dedication:  he is to keep himself
	holy to the LORD.   ... [REB]

There's quite a bit more.  At the conclusion of this period,
	...
	he is to be brought to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting
	...
	The Nazirite will shave his head at the entrance to the
	Tent of Meeting, take the hair which had been dedicated,
	and put it on the fire where the shared-offering is burning.
	...

Now in Acts 18:18, we are told

	Paul stayed on at Corinth for some time, and then took leave
	of the congregation.  Accompanied by Priscilla and Acquila,
	he sailed for Syria
    -->	having had his hair cut off at Cenchreae in fulfilment of a vow.

Some commentators explain this as the fulfilment of a Nazirite vow.
If so, then there was a time when Paul had long hair for religious reasons,
and that close in time to a visit to Corinth.

As always, a text without a context is a pretext.  What's the context
of 1 Corinthians 11:12?  That chapter is about public worship.  Verse
4 says
	A man who keeps his head covered when he prays or prophesies
	brings shame on his head ...
Now, what kind of person wears a skull-cap?  what kind of person uses
a prayer-shawl?  do they do these things during public prayer? and is
there a sense in which they have long hair?  Answers:  Orthodox Jews,
Orthodox Jews, yes, and yes [Leviticus 19:27 "You are not to cut off
your hair from your temples or shave the edge of your beards."].

Is that a possible reading of 1 Cor. 11:14?  The word is "komao",
"to let the hair grow".  I haven't a good enough dictionary to tell
me whether this can refer to the beard, but the usual word for "hair"
(thrix) can refer to animal hair as well as the hair on your head, so
I imagine that the range is about the same as English "hair".  Anyone know?
The NT never seems to refer to beards as such, unlike the Tanach.

I don't know about skull-caps, but prayer-shawls and phylacteries
certainly existed at the time Paul wrote.  In accepting men and women
worshipping together, Paul was definitely departing from Jewish custom.
_Perhaps_ what he was suggesting in I Cor. 11 was a further separation
from Jewish practice.  If there is someone on the net who could tell us
more definitely what the custom was?  Anyone studied _Megillah_?

Given that I'm clean-shaven (contra Lev. 19:27), it would ill become
me to criticise someone for long hair (contra 1 Cor. 11:14 *maybe*),
however silly I think they look.  I tend to regard the ethical commands
in the NT as binding for all time, and on the strength of 1 Cor. 11 I
would not (being a man) wear a hat in church.  But in this case I think
we can honestly say "further study is needed".

-- 
I am not now and never have been a member of Mensa.		-- Ariadne.

ldh@bessel.eedsp.gatech.edu (Lonnie D Harvel) (11/29/90)

|>
|>[The relevant passage is I Cor 11:14: "Does not nature itself teach
|>you that for a man to wear long hair is degrading to him?"  Like most
|>of Paul's specific instructions, some Christians consider this binding
|>for all time and others consider it to be application only in its
|>original social context -- a debate we're not likely to settle.
|>--clh]


I wonder if Paul believed Samson's hair to be degrading?

Lonnie
                      
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Lonnie D. Harvel                 |  ldh@bessel.eedsp.gatech.edu
School of Electrical Engineering |  
Georgia Institue of Technology   |  "quisque suis patimur manis" 
Atlanta, GA  30332-0250          |  Virgil

max@mthvax.cs.miami.edu (Max Southall) (11/30/90)

Heh... it's amazing how few artistic renderings of Jesus show Him
with a military-style crew-cut...!

Or... how the founding fathers of America all either had long hair or
wore wigs! Despite the fact that they were far more overtly Christian
than the short-haired culture of today...

This is one of those things that changes as the culture does, and is not
absolute. The main thing is not to give offense within a cultural context
for the sake of sharing Christ.