kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Darren F Provine) (10/25/90)
In article <Sep.13.02.22.33.1990.23870@athos.rutgers.edu> ("Who's a
Christian and who isn't, anyway?"), I offered criteria for distinguishing
Real Christians (tm) from UnReal ones, and looked at some of the problems
with such criteria.
Some of the replies suggest that I was misunderstood, so I will try making
a different (though related) point in this article. (I chose the approach
I used last time because I was trying to avoid writing an article with a
direct reference to the Latter-Day Saints, but (alas!) here we are.)
Every so often, we see articles in this group arguing that a certain group
is Not Really Christian for some reason or other, for whatever reasons.
Recent articles from Robert Firth & Cindy Smith (about the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-Day Saints) have been of this genre, and in the past we've
had similar articles from Jehovah's Witnesses about the Trinity, and
conservatives about JWs, ad nauseum.
It occurs to me that the authors of such articles tacitly acknowledge some
axioms which have a potentially controversial corollary: intellectual
capability is a requirement for salvation.
For example, suppose Hepzebar posts an article saying that:
a) Throckmorton Heretic believes a doctrine that is false.
b) This doctrine can be shown false by arguments from Scripture verses.
c) Because this doctrine is false, anyone who believes it is not really
a Christian.
d) Since Throckmorton is not really a Christian, he isn't really saved.
(I have seen such articles from Hepzebars who were Jehovah's Witnesses,
conservative mainstream Protestants, and some people I can't really
categorise, so this example is hardly hypothetical.)
Further, let us suppose that Hepzebar is correct on all points; and that
Throckmorton's favorite doctrine really is false, and really can be shown
false from Scripture (and, therefore, that Throckmorton's Scripture
arguments are flawed).
Throckmorton, however, believes his doctrine because he finds the flawed
arguments convincing, and lacks the intelligence to recognise the flaws;
Hepzebar fails to convince Throckmorton due to his limited intellectual
capability.
Throckmorton, then:
a) has studied the issue in some depth,
b) prayerfully and honestly seeks to know God's will,
c) does not have an `unrepentant heart',
d) recognises Jesus Christ as Lord,
e) lives his life as he believes God would have him do,
and f) puts his trust for salvation only in Christ's sacrifice.
But none of this will help him, and he will be barred from Heaven _only_
because he is not intellectually capable of seeing the strengths and
weaknesses in a philosophical argument.
Hepzebars usually insist that Incorrect Belief is damning, and use (or
try to) arguments that appeal to the intellect -- but they never say that
reasoning ability is a component of salvation. (A Jehovah's Witness in
talk.religion.misc once posted an article with a subject line that said
"Trinity doctrine is false and illogical" -- why the reference to logic,
if one's reasoning ability is not important?)
At this point, some of the Hepzebars out there are saying `Throckmorton
is a logical impossibility -- if he had a right heart, and honest prayer,
etc, he would agree with me.' However, they don't say `pray about this
issue', they always try to produce logical arguments. Why the constant
(ab-)use of logic as a conversion tool unless a person's logical ability
is important to salvation?
My questions, then, for the Hepzebars (whether they be Witnesses, mainstream
Christians, ultra-Protestants, or whatever) who use logic (often badly) in
an effort to show other Christians why their beliefs (Transubstantiation,
the Trinity, Joseph Smith's Prophethood, Annihilationism, &c) are false, are
these:
Suppose you are right, and <whoever-you-argue-with> is wrong; if a
person who disagrees does so because she fails to see the superiority
of your arguments, do you believe that intellectual capabilities are a
determining factor of salvation? If not, why is a person who does
not agree with you about <whatever-doctrine> a non-Christian (and,
therefore, unsaved)?
As I see it, unless you are willing to agree that philosophical ability
is a prerequisite for salvation, then you cannot use beliefs which are
determined by argument and evidence to distinguish who is saved and who
is not.
kilroy@cs.umd.edu Darren F. Provine ...uunet!mimsy!kilroy
"The secret of our relationships with one another in the Christian Church,
especially when we have our differences, is `Jesus Christ is Lord'. To
despise or stand in judgement on a fellow Christian isn't just a breach of
fellowship. It is a denial of the Lordship of Jesus. I need to say to
myself, who am I, that I should cast myself in the role of another
Christian's lord and judge? I must be willing for Jesus Christ to be not
only my Lord and Judge, but also my fellow Christians' Lord and Judge....
I must not interfere with Christ's Lordship over other Christians."
-- John R W Stott
[Few of our posters have put overtly intellectual requirements on
salvation. Saying that someone is a Christian is not the same as
saying that they are saved. It can be used either institutionally, to
say that they belong to a certain body, that they have been baptized,
or it can be used as a label for a particular intellectual movement,
to say that someone accepts (to greater or lesser extent) a set of
beliefs characterized as Christian. Without some definition such as
that, we see Christian used to characterize anyone who believes in
being nice to people. But I think our readers generally understand
the distinction between these sorts of analytical definition and the
reality of our relationship to God. The definition I have most
commonly heard is that salvation requires having Christ as Lord and
Savior. Doctrinal errors can certainly place obstacles in the path of
this, by having people misconceive what Christ did for us, or the
nature of our relationship with him. But few of our posters have been
willing to draw solid doctrinal lines, and say that some particular
error makes it completely impossible to be saved. While ETS may
control admission to many earthly privileges, I do not expect to be
asked to take the Uniform Theological Entrance Examination when I get
to the pearly gates. --clh]ldh@bessel.eedsp.gatech.edu (Lonnie D Harvel) (10/28/90)
Bravo Darren!
I am Christian, my beliefs are flawed, they have to be because
I am imperfect. But I have Faith, and trust in the forgiveness
of God. One thing I am sure that I cannot do is judge, that is
the province of God. There are those who claim to be
Christian with whom I disagree. I "believe" that there version
of Christianity is false. However, I have no authority to
declare it so. I will surely argue with them, but I should
never judge them.
Lonnie
----------------------------------------------------------------
The comments and spelling herein are mine and nobody
else lays claim to them.
================================================================
Lonnie D. Harvel | ldh@bessel.eedsp.gatech.edu
School of Electrical Engineering |
Georgia Institue of Technology | "quisque suis patimur manis"
Atlanta, GA 30332-0250 | Virgilwagner@karazm.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) (10/30/90)
In article <Oct.25.02.55.06.1990.28598@athos.rutgers.edu> kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Darren F Provine) writes: >Throckmorton, then: > a) has studied the issue in some depth, > b) prayerfully and honestly seeks to know God's will, > c) does not have an `unrepentant heart', > d) recognises Jesus Christ as Lord, > e) lives his life as he believes God would have him do, >and f) puts his trust for salvation only in Christ's sacrifice. > >But none of this will help him, and he will be barred from Heaven _only_ >because he is not intellectually capable of seeing the strengths and >weaknesses in a philosophical argument. and > Suppose you are right, and <whoever-you-argue-with> is wrong; if a > person who disagrees does so because she fails to see the superiority > of your arguments, do you believe that intellectual capabilities are a > determining factor of salvation? If not, why is a person who does > not agree with you about <whatever-doctrine> a non-Christian (and, > therefore, unsaved)? Darren Provine poses an interesting question. My reply is, first of all, that salvation is a matter of faith, and not reason. Anybody can be saved regardless of their ability to reason. It is not necessary to understand all of the doctrines of the Bible to be saved. That would be a form of works righteousness. At the same time, I cannot hold much hope for someone who teaches false doctrine. Teachers in the church are held, I believe, to a higher degree of responsibility than those who merely follow. As Paul writes, and repeats, in Galatians 1:8, "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (anathema) I believe that the only criterion for salvation is that we trust only in Christ's death and resurrection for our salvation, and do not rely in any way on our works as contributing to that salvation. Jehovah's Witnesses, as far as I can tell, do not do this. I have asked several JW's who have come to my door, 'How is a man saved?' and the answer I have gotten is either 'by living a christian life' or 'by following Christ's example'. When I point out Ephesians 2:8-9, they generally say 'Oh, yes, we believe that' but I believe their first response is the most accurate. After all, these are people coming to my door and claiming to know Scripture cover to cover. If they are really doing christian evangelism, then there is no way that they should be able to point out every verse in the Bible that seems to deny Christ's divinity or the eternal punishment of the unbeliever, but get the most important doctrine of the Bible wrong, that is, if they really believe that 'it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast.' I might add that I do not believe the Jehovah's Witnesses truly confess that Jesus Christ is their Lord. Their Lord is Jehovah, and they do not believe that Jehovah is the same as Jesus. (See Romans 9:13 and compare Joel 2:32). I do not believe that everyone who belongs to a church that teaches false doctrine is damned. That would be contrary to the Lutheran doctrine concerning the church. The church is the body of believers, whom the Spirit has called to faith through the means of grace, that is, the Word of God and the Sacraments. Where these are used in accordance with Christ's command there the Spirit is working faith. However it must be noted that false doctrine is dangerous; it is harmful to our faith and a threat to our salvation. 'A liitle yeast works its way through the whole batch of dough'. For this reason, Scripture enjoins us to avoid those who teach false doctrine, as I have noted in my postings (see Romans 16:17-18), and may shortly explain in greater depth. So while someone may belong to a 'false' church and still be Christian, that does not mean that I should have fellowship with him - even though we are still part of the one Christian church. In summary, I believe that Darren's Throckmorton is saved - unless perhaps he is a teacher of false doctrine, who ought to know better. Nor do I think intellectual shortcomings are the reason for a person's holding to false doctrine. This is a spiritual matter that has to be spiritually discerned. Some of the world's brightest and best minds belong to unbelievers -- surely Darren will agree with this. David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran "O little flock, fear not the Foe Who madly seeks you overthrow; Dread not his rage and pow'r. What tho' you courage sometimes faints, His seeming triumph o'er God's saints Lasts but a little hour." --a reformation hymn by Johann M. Altenburg, 1632. My opinions and beliefs on this matter are disclaimed by The University of Houston.
ldh@bessel.eedsp.gatech.edu (Lonnie D Harvel) (11/02/90)
David Wagner says:
"
However it must be noted that false doctrine is dangerous; it is harmful
to our faith and a threat to our salvation. 'A liitle yeast works its
way through the whole batch of dough'. For this reason, Scripture
enjoins us to avoid those who teach false doctrine, as I have noted in
my postings (see Romans 16:17-18), and may shortly explain in greater depth.
So while someone may belong to a 'false' church and still be Christian,
that does not mean that I should have fellowship with him - even though
we are still part of the one Christian church.
"
Allright, I agree with your statement, but how is someone supposed
to know the difference between true and false doctrine?
Lonnie
----------------------------------------------------------------
The comments and spelling herein are mine and nobody
else lays claim to them.
================================================================
Lonnie D. Harvel | ldh@bessel.eedsp.gatech.edu
School of Electrical Engineering |
Georgia Institue of Technology | "quisque suis patimur manis"
Atlanta, GA 30332-0250 | Virgilstevep@cadence.com (Steve Peterson) (11/06/90)
Hello David, I recently read your comments in article <Oct.30.00.27.50.1990.7858@athos.rutgers.edu> concerning Jehovah's witness and their beliefs. As one of Jehovah's witness myself I thought I would add a comment or two... First, I am glad that you take the time to talk to us when we stop by your door. Although you don't agree with certain doctrines, we appreciate your time and the conversations that we have with you. You wrote: |I believe that the only criterion for salvation is that we trust only in |Christ's death and resurrection for our salvation, and do not rely in |any way on our works as contributing to that salvation. Jehovah's Witnesses, |as far as I can tell, do not do this. I have asked several JW's who |have come to my door, 'How is a man saved?' and the answer I have gotten |is either 'by living a christian life' or 'by following Christ's example'. |When I point out Ephesians 2:8-9, they generally say 'Oh, yes, we believe |that' but I believe their first response is the most accurate. After |all, these are people coming to my door and claiming to know Scripture |cover to cover. If they are really doing christian evangelism, then |there is no way that they should be able to point out every verse in the |Bible that seems to deny Christ's divinity or the eternal punishment of |the unbeliever, but get the most important doctrine of the Bible wrong, |that is, if they really believe that 'it is by grace you have been saved, |through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not |by works, so that no one can boast.' For the life of me, I have never understood why people make such an issue over the faith/works issue. In my reading of the Bible, I have always seen that it points out that salvation is due to faith in Jesus and the value of his ransom sacrifice. This faith is expressed in many ways, in the things we say, think, and do. There are several discussions in the Bible that point out that uselessness of faith without works as well as works without faith The main point being that Salvation is through faith. True faith will bring forth works. I am sorry that this was somehow miscommunicated to you. Perhaps the witnesses that you spoke with were new... As for the "official position" of Jehovah's witnesses, this is what I found in what I call our "door-to-door handbook" called Reasoning from the Scriptures: Under the Subject of Salvation, page 359:(comments in parenthesis are from the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society) Is anything more than faith needed in order to gain salvation? -------------------------------------------------------------- Eph 2:8,9 RS "By grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - not because of works lest any man should boast." (The entire provision for salvation is an expression of God's undeserved kindness. There is no way that a descendant of Adam can gain salvation on his own, no matter how noble his works are. Salvation is a gift from God given to those who put faith in the sin-atoning value of the sacrifice of his Son.) Heb 5:9 RS "He [Jesus] became the source of eternal salvation to all who *obey* him. (Does this conflict with the statement that Christians are "saved through faith"? Not at all. Obedience simply demonstrates that their faith is genuine.) Jas. 2:14,26 RS "What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead." (A person does not *earn* salvation by his works. But anyone who has genuine faith *will* have works to go with it - works of obedience to the commands of God and Christ, works that demonstrate his faith and love. Without such works, his faith is dead.) Acts 16:30, 31 RS "'Men, what must I do to be saved?' And they [Paul and Silas] said, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.'" (If that man and his household truly believed, would they not act in harmony with their belief? Certainly.) |................................After |all, these are people coming to my door and claiming to know Scripture |cover to cover. If they are really doing christian evangelism, then |there is no way that they should be able to point out every verse in the |Bible that seems to deny Christ's divinity or the eternal punishment of |the unbeliever, but get the most important doctrine of the Bible wrong, |that is, if they really believe that 'it is by grace you have been saved, |through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not |by works, so that no one can boast.' Following Jesus' command at Math 28:19,20 (*Go* make disciples....teaching them to observes the things that I have commanded....) is never an easy thing to do. Certainly, I don't go to anyones door with the purpose of trying to claim any superior knowledge of the Scriptures. I just go because I am trying to do the best I can to show my love of God, Jesus, and neighbor. Nothing more, nothing less. Just trying to help and encourage people to learn more about the Bible and the salvation that comes trough faith in Jesus' ransom sacrifice. And as I said, it is never easy, knowing as I do that the vast majority of people don't welcome us. I always try to keep in mind that Jesus and the apostles were also percieved as a nuisance by many of their day because they approached people to talke about God, Jesus, and the Scriptures. |I might add that I do not believe the Jehovah's Witnesses truly |confess that Jesus Christ is their Lord. Their Lord is Jehovah, and |they do not believe that Jehovah is the same as Jesus. (See Romans |9:13 and compare Joel 2:32). What can I add to this except to say that I do confess Jesus as my Lord. This is what the Bible says. This is what every witness that I have ever known has confessed. It is also the "official" position of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Joel 2:32 says that "all who call on the name of Jehovah will be saved." I am unsure why you are quoting Romans 9:13. Best Regards...... ---- stevep@cadence.com or ...!uunet!cadence!stevep [This comes down to what you mean by "Jesus Christ is Lord". If it means that we are committed to following Jesus as his disciple, and as our way to God, then I see no reason to doubt JW's when they say that they acknowledge Christ as their Lord. However it appears that David took Lord as a reference to God, and mean by the statement that he acknowledges Jesus as God. Of course JW's do not. As he implies, JW beliefs reject the full deity of Christ, as well as the Trinity, both of which they consider to be non-Biblical. The discussion is going to become very confused unless we realize that the same phrase is being used differently. --clh]
stevep@cadence.com (Steve Peterson) (11/13/90)
[This continues the discussion started by Darren Provine on the
question of whether people who are ignorant or simply mistaken are
thereby incapable to being saved. Claims that salvation requires a
certain belief seems to imply this. So he wants to know whether
people really believe that the ability to recognize certain doctrines
as true or false can really be required for salvation. --clh]
I think that this is a great question that you have asked. A few thoughts:
On Salvation:
-------------
Those who are saved, redeemed, going to heaven, receiving everlasting
life, etc., are chosen by God, not by any of us who enjoy discussing Bible
topics from differing points of view.
On the role of accurate knowledge:
----------------------------------
The Bible gives several examples that show the importance of having
accurate knowledge, and encourages us to examine the Scriptures carefully.
1Tim 2:4 God's will is for us to gain accurate knowledge
Acts 17:11 Berean's good example
Acts 17:2,3 Paul's example of reasoning from the Scriptures
Rom 10:2 The Jews had zeal for God but not according to accurate
knowledge.
John 17:3 This means life: Their knowing [taking in knowledge]
of God.
On intellectual capability as a requirement for salvation
---------------------------------------------------------
Math 11:25 Jesus praises his Father on his ability to reveal
truths such that intellectual capability isn't a
prerequisite.
And so, I have concluded that accurate knowledge is important to God. It is
better to have a correct understanding of a Bible doctrine than to not. It
is His will that we come to an accurate knowledge of the truth. Having done
so, we are in a better position to act on what we have learned. But
fortunately, who is or isn't saved will be determine by God and not any of
us.
Best Regards......
Steve Peterson
----
stevep@cadence.com or ...!uunet!cadence!stevepgross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) (11/29/90)
In article <Nov.6.03.57.25.1990.3550@athos.rutgers.edu> stevep@cadence.com (Steve Peterson) writes: >For the life of me, I have never understood why people make such an issue >over the faith/works issue. In my reading of the Bible, I have always seen >that it points out that salvation is due to faith in Jesus and the value ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >of his ransom sacrifice. This faith is expressed in many ways, in the things >we say, think, and do. There are several discussions in the Bible that point >out that uselessness of faith without works as well as works without faith >The main point being that Salvation is through faith. True faith will bring ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >forth works. I am sorry that this was somehow miscommunicated to you. Not to be nit picky...well, yeah, I'm going to be a bit nit picky...and it has nothing to do with Steve being a Witness because I've seen others doing this. Please note the parts that I highlighted. Salvation is due to the grace of Jehovah God *and* the faith that He gives us to believe (pisteuo). Now, I have not studied Eph. 2:8, 9 in the Greek, but will make a point of it tonight. However, the construction in the English points out clearly that even the "faith" is a gift of God. This means that salvation is purely the work of God and does not hinge upon me, or any other human being at all. That is, salvation is due to God, His grace, and His gift of faith. This is not a matter of semantics. The apostle goes on to point out that our salvation is not a matter of works so that human pride cannot have room to boast. If the faith were merely human faith, then it would amount to human works of righteousness. And we know from previous writings of the apostle that our righteousness is as filthy rags in God's sight. So the faith is not of human origin. Rather, it originates with God who gives it to us freely for purposes of salvation. Now, I agree with that once we have this faith, we will bring forth works appropriate to salvation and redemption. When we look into our own lives, we ought to see works that speak volumes about our discipleship to our Lord Jesus. For His glory, Gene Gross
farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) (11/30/90)
[This is a response to a posting by Gene Gross that was part of a discussion on salvation, faith, grace, and works. He emphasizes that salvation is due to grace and faith, but even the faith is a gift of God, so salvation is purely God's work. Of course faith will bring forth works. --clh] Many things which you said is true, however, you have over simplified the process of salvation. It is true that faith is a gift. The big question this brings is that, why is it that one person has a greater faith then another? Is God unjust? Are we talking about the concept of predestination, meaning that God choose some for salvation and others for condemnation, regardless what a person does or doesn't do? The Bible clearly says that this is not true. God whants all of his children to be saved, and not one of them to be lost. If this is true, why does he give more faith to one then to another, or does He do this? I believe that all man receives as a gift sufficient faith for salvation. What you have left out of the equation is what we have to do, like repentance. Will God repent in our place, did Jesus repent in my place on the cross? The answere is no! Jesus did atone for my sins that I won't have to pay the penalty, but repentance is one thing which I must do. The scriptures are explicitly clear that God called upon all men and women to repent. This is what Peter tells to those who have heard the gospel and whanted to know what they should do: Acts 2:37-38 ============ "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and bretheren, what shall we do?" "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Is repentace work? We better believe it that it is. If I am to repent, I need to stop or to start saying or to doing certain things. James also tells us that we need to do to perfect our faith: James 2:21-22 ============= "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, and by works was faith made perfect?" "Seest thou how faith wrought with works, and by works was faith made perfect?" James 2:24 ========== "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." The difference between a person who has little faith and another person who has great faith is their works. One has repented and done good works in response to the faith which he received as a gift, and the other didn't. It is true that salvation is a gift of God, however, it is a conditional gift, based on our good works. Clearly, we are free to accept the gift or to reject it. This is the reson why some will be cast out into outher darkness at the judgement day, and others will receive their rewards based on their good works. Paul understood clearly that not all man will be resurrected to the same glory. I Corint 15:41-42 ***************** "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also the resurrection of the dead. ..." For most of us, the issue is not if we will go to "heaven" or "hell", but are we worthy to be joint heirs with Christ. Indeed, only few will be cast out into outher darkness at the judgement day, and only few who will be worthy to be joint heirs with Christ. Most of mankind will be saved because of the great sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ. The big question is, saved from, or to what? Saved from being cast out and saved to an appropriate place in heaven based on our good works. Jesus said that there are many mentions in his Father's house. With brotherly love, Frank