[soc.religion.christian] I am Lost

bradley@brahms.udel.edu (William B Bradley) (11/29/90)

	I recently was involved in a heated debate with a close friend 
concerning the relationship between money and the church.
	I believe that one is obligated to give to the hungry until one is
hungry himself.  One should give to the naked until naked himself. One should
sacrifice of ones self until death.
	She believes that since the Bible says we are to tithe, she is safe
giving a set percentage of her money to the church, and when I say that it
satisfies me to give more of myself, she reminds me of the dangers of writing
one's own scripture.
	I feel right here, but would like to continue friendly relations with
my friend, talk to me.
.

joy@oak.circa.ufl.edu (Shelly Felton) (11/30/90)

In article <Nov.29.00.11.41.1990.14128@athos.rutgers.edu>, bradley@brahms.udel.edu (William B Bradley) writes:
>	I believe that one is obligated to give to the hungry until one is
>hungry himself.  One should give to the naked until naked himself. One should
>sacrifice of ones self until death.

I feel for you because I at one time held a similar belief. I should point
out that if you truly sacrificed yourself unto death you should already be
dead by now. Your ideal is very eloquently stated, but I must ask Are you 
hungry now? Are you naked now? "Love your neighbor as yourself" demands that
you first "love" yourself by attending to the needs of your life so that
you'll be ABLE to love your neighbor! 
	Scripture says (paraphrase) "If somebody asks for you shirt give 
him your coat also." But realize that very soon one is liable to run out of 
shirts AND cloaks and have to beg from somebody else. 
	I think the admirable generous and giving ideals you espouse could
possibly be tempered with the scriptural advice of " don't put a stumbling
block in your brother's way." If by continual and selfless giving of either
money OR material possessions you allow a person to avoid using the gifts God 
gave them to get their own money or material possessions, then you are 
putting a stumbling block in their way, no matter how selfless your OWN 
motives may be, see? (Thinking specifically of giving to panhandlers, 
not to the church...sorry for digressing!!)
	I also think you should take another look at the word "obligated" in
your statement...God's grace is a gift ..."by Grace are you saved, by faith,
and not of works lest anyone should boast." I don't think giving is 
"required" of Christians, but if we choose to follow Christ's example, giving
is there for us to incorporate into our lives.

You said also: 
>	She believes that since the Bible says we are to tithe, she is safe
>giving a set percentage of her money to the church, and when I say that it
>satisfies me to give more of myself, she reminds me of the dangers of writing
>one's own scripture.

I wish I had my Bible with me at this moment to look this up, but isn't tithing
an Old Testament rule? A person would be "safe" in Christ's love even if
they didn't tithe at all. Doesn't the Lord love people who don't have enough
money to tithe with? 

I think you should give as much as the Lord calls you to give, NOT out of 
guilt which I believe to be a tool of Satan to cloud the fact that God's 
grace through Jesus Christ is a gift of mercy, not a reward for our actions. 
And hark to the warning in Mark (I think...rats, I wish I had my Bible here!) 
where the apostle warns of doing good things on the street corners "like the 
hypocrits do," in order to *appear* righteous. The giving you do in God's name 
should be between you and the Lord. 

>	I feel right here, but would like to continue friendly relations with
>my friend, talk to me.
	For what it's worth I hold more with the belief you describe than to 
the practice of tithing, in which there is a danger of the meaning and purpose 
of giving to be forgotten. But don't forget that a major part of Christ's 
teaching have to do with forgiveness...so if you wanna continue being friends
maybe you should give a little bit of that, and don't hold a difference of 
opinion against her...


--
Shelly Felton     Internet: joy@maple.decnet%pine.circa.ufl.edu
Direct from University of Florida campus, Gainesville, FL
Standard Disclaimer: I don't speak for UF and UF don't speak for me.

oracle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Brian T. Coughlin) (12/01/90)

Re: William B Bradley


In article <Nov.29.00.11.41.1990.14128@athos.rutgers.edu>
 bradley@brahms.udel.edu (William B Bradley) writes:

> I recently was involved in a heated debate with a close friend
>concerning the relationship between money and the church.
> I believe that one is obligated to give to the hungry until one is
>hungry himself.  One should give to the naked until naked himself. One should
>sacrifice of ones self until death.
> She believes that since the Bible says we are to tithe, she is safe
>giving a set percentage of her money to the church, and when I say that it
>satisfies me to give more of myself, she reminds me of the dangers of writing
>one's own scripture.
> I feel right here, but would like to continue friendly relations with
>my friend, talk to me.


  Hi, William!


    Your wishes to "empty" your own self for the sake of the world
 is a highly noble one... and even desirable, in certain respects.
 When done in a pure conscience, it shows that you love your neighbor
 even more than yourself (some might say that this is bad, quoting
 the Golden Rule as "Love thy neighbor AS thyself", but I won't. I
 believe that the Golden Rule allows leeway for generosity). But there
 are certain things to consider: YOU have needs, as well. These needs
 MUST be met if you are to remain a healthy, functioning human being.
 God gave us immortal souls, but did not give us immortal or indestructible
 bodies, nor did He give us infinitely resilient minds. Humans need food,
 clothing, shelter, love, physical AND mental rest, and so on.
    Please remember: you are MUCH more useful to the people of the world
 if you are ALIVE rather than dead. You are also more useful to
 the world if you are HEALTHY (and thus able to perform normal tasks),
 rather than unhealthy. I assert to you that selflessness is beautiful,
 but giving of oneself to the point of personal death or ruination is
 actually *sinful*; your body is the temple of your soul, and is therefore
 holy... NOT to be unnecessarily defiled. Your mind is a gift from God;
 it would be ungrateful of that gift to abuse it and torture it unnecessarily.
    Your friend elects to "tithe" at a set percentage, rather than at
 an undetermined percentage; I assert to you that she is fully within her
 moral rights to do so. But then again, so are YOU, if you choose to give
 MORE than that (given that you don't hurt yourself in the process). There
 is no universal law telling humans EXACTLY how much to give. Each human
 must give according to the dictations of his/her conscience. It is no
 one's place to judge another's generosity. It is wrong of your friend to
 judge your desire to give greatly of yourself, as she doesn't understand
 the deep emotional need that [I assume] you have for doing so. It is
 also wrong for YOU to judge your FRIEND'S generosity; there may well be
 a strong emotional or physical reason WHY she doesn't give more... a
 reason that you may not be aware of (and might never be aware of; one's
 personal relationship with God [which affects generosity] is one's own
 business... no one has a right to pry into it).

    I'd urge you to take some time and reconcile yourself with your
 friend's beliefs, her RIGHT to hold those beliefs, and her right to
 manage her generosity according to how God calls her to do so (her
 urge to give may increase or decrease... but please remember that it
 is not your concern... it's an issue SOLELY between God and her). Once
 you do, go and TELL her that you understand her beliefs. Once you are
 in that position of understanding her views, you then have the right to
 ask that she understand yours (PROVIDED that you not injure yourself
 physically, mentally, OR spiritually... I'm quite serious about that!).
 Acceptance and understanding are the mortar that helps to bind friends
 together; love cannot exist without them. I assume that you love your
 friend, and that she loves you. Please don't throw that away; accept
 her as she is, and urge her to accept you as you are. Once that happens,
 all other "problems" between you will become easier to manage.
    When you think about generosity in the future, think of this: it is
 not only EARTHLY wealth that we are supposed to give. If you've reached
 your limit of earthly gifts, start giving more spiritual ones. Love is
 a gift. Acceptance is a gift. Forgiveness is a gift. Encouragement is
 a gift. It is such as THESE that Christ was urging all of us to give,
 since these gifts can never run out! And, I believe, in this world today...
 these are the gifts that the world DESPERATELY needs the MOST!

  I hope this helps!  My love to both of you!  ;)

----
   Take care!

   Sincerely,     Brian Coughlin
                  oracle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu