[soc.religion.christian] intermarraige

kpsst1@unix.cis.pitt.edu (Kent P Stiegler) (11/27/90)

I'm a Jewish guy with a question about how intermarraiges are handled
these days.  If you have experience with this situation, I would greatly
appreciate you sharing your views with me, as I am very confused about it.

Firstly, I am not seeking an ethics-argument about whether it's good or bad.
Obviously it's against the laws of Torah, but being a Reform Jew, it 
would not be the first time I have disobeyed the letter of the law. 
 
Secondly, I understand that the "rules", if any, regarding the appropriate
program for an actual ceremony between a Jew and a Gentile do not exist
in our traditional prayer or law-books.  The Torah says that a Jew cannot
marry a Gentile.  Yet there are reform Synagogues and reform Rabbis that
participate in intermarriages.  Who decides how to resolve this apparent
contradiction?  How is the ceremony conducted?  

I have attended two intermarraige weddings, both of them between male
Jewish friends and Catholics.  The first was handled simply in a courtroom
by a JP without any denominational references.  The parents could not
resolve their problem, the couple didn't want to bother arguing about it
anymore, so they just kept it simple.
The second was unusual.  "Joshua" was raised in a conservative environment
until his Barmitzvah, after which his only exposure to Jewish customs was
on the high holidays.  He attended a public school and eventually, following
his many cousin's suit, dated mostly Gentile girls.  It was not a rebelion,
he just liked them and spent time with them.  "Chris" was raised in a
Protestant environment, and her religious involvment declined in a
manner similar to Josh's.  They dated for a couple years then decided to
live together.  Chris' family wouldn't permit that and "persuaded" her to
marry first.  In love and ready to start a life together, they agreed.
Josh, very busy with a new career, literally didn't care how the arrangments
were made.  Chris' folks handled it.  So they ceremony was conducted by a
JP in a garden-setting without religious incidentals... EXCEPT for 
"Here Comes the Bride" march, some lines about "Do you swear in the name 
of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost" and one mention of Jesus 
Christ.   Of course, these Christian inclusions were made without approval
of Josh or his parents (they just winced and suffered through it).  
Therefore, for all intents and purposes, it was conducted as a Christian 
wedding.  

Now, I know Josh, and he is a wimp.  He does not think much of his parents
and probably does not realize how seriously he dishonered them by repeating
his vows with Christian wording.  But could he have retained a Rabbi and
a Priest to do a dual-demoninational wedding?  Is there a resolution?

Thanks in advance for your response.

Gar.

levene@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu (Robert A. Levene) (11/29/90)

>Secondly, I understand that the "rules", if any, regarding the appropriate
>program for an actual ceremony between a Jew and a Gentile do not exist
>in our traditional prayer or law-books.  The Torah says that a Jew cannot
>marry a Gentile.

There is no such ceremony because according to Jewish law, "marriages"
between Jews and Gentiles are not recognized.

>Yet there are reform Synagogues and reform Rabbis that
>participate in intermarriages.  Who decides how to resolve this apparent
>contradiction?

They *don't* resolve the contradiction - they just disregard the Torah
prohibition on intermarriage, just like they disregard other laws.
(Take note that many non-orthodox rabbis will refuse to perform mixed
"marriages.")


>   But could he have retained a Rabbi and
> a Priest to do a dual-demoninational wedding? 

No.  Any rabbi who would perform a mixed "marriage" would probably
     not even be considered a rabbi by many Jews.

> Is there a resolution?

No.


- Rob

--
Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu   Bitnet: RXL1@APLVM

Disclaimer: I speak neither for my race, my culture, my country, my religion,
            my political party, nor my employer, but for me alone.

ta00est@unccvax.uncc.edu (elizabeth s tallant) (11/29/90)

Gar,

If you're looking for the best solution to the problem, it would probably be
best for you to retain a justice of the peace to perform the ceremony.  In
this case, you don't have to worry about Judeo or Christian implications.

However, I would urge you to take a good look at the Old Testament, where
you will find references to the Messiah, as well as places in which God
says that he will integrate Gentiles into Israel.  He also says that he will
raise up his own crop of Israelites.  A good place to start would be Isiah
53 and 65.  Perhaps these will change your own personal views toward Gentiles.
If you are  interested, I can provide you with a list of Biblical references.

Elizabeth
ta00est@unccvax.uncc.edu

stevenw@wotan.sps.mot.com (Steven Weintraub) (11/29/90)

This is a what Kent P Stiegler writes:
> I'm a Jewish guy with a question about how intermarraiges are handled
> these days.  If you have experience with this situation, I would greatly
> appreciate you sharing your views with me, as I am very confused about it.

Well, I have some experience.  I also can give you some information on the
traditional law part.  For some background, I am married to a convert.  When
we first met eight years ago, Tina (my wife) was interested in Judaism and
wanted to study more.  When we were married five years ago, she still had
not started more than a shallow study.  She actively started studing for
conversion 3 and a half years ago, and has been Jewish a year last Thursday.

> Firstly, I am not seeking an ethics-argument about whether it's good or bad.
> Obviously it's against the laws of Torah, but being a Reform Jew, it 
> would not be the first time I have disobeyed the letter of the law. 

Just as a rhetorical question.  If Judaism is not important to you, why
remain Jewish.  Marriage is the most important decision you will mak
(besides from having children).  If Judaism isn't important to influence
this decision, shouldn't you just drop the pretence of being Jewish.
I don't mean to be nasty with this question, but I do think it is something
to think about.

(Just so I don't seen to much like a hypocrite, when I married my wife, I
was fairly confident that she would eventually convert).

> Secondly, I understand that the "rules", if any, regarding the appropriate
> program for an actual ceremony between a Jew and a Gentile do not exist
> in our traditional prayer or law-books.  The Torah says that a Jew cannot
> marry a Gentile.  Yet there are reform Synagogues and reform Rabbis that
> participate in intermarriages.  Who decides how to resolve this apparent
> contradiction?  How is the ceremony conducted?  

First of all, let's get the easy ones out of the way.  No Orthodox or
Conservative Rabbi will marry you.  Either would have his smicha (rabbinical
diploma) removed.  The Reform movement is actively discouraging their Rabbi's
>From performing marriages with mixed symbolism.  Reform Rabbis will still
perform mixed marriages, but are moving away from it.

> I have attended two intermarraige weddings, both of them between male
> Jewish friends and Catholics.  The first was handled simply in a courtroom
> by a JP without any denominational references.  The parents could not
> resolve their problem, the couple didn't want to bother arguing about it
> anymore, so they just kept it simple.

When I married my wife (the first time), we used a JP.  To have vows in a
ceremony that are meaningless to one or the other party demeans the
marriage, the ceremony, and the intent of the whole occassion.  I just
went to a JP wedding for a friend, and she broke out giggling when asked
if she would love, honor, and OBEY.  What did it really mean when she
finally said I do?  To add in religious vows which are meaningless to
one or the other party, also demeans the religion involved.

<Story of Josh the Wimp removed>
  
> Now, I know Josh, and he is a wimp.  He does not think much of his parents
> and probably does not realize how seriously he dishonered them by repeating
> his vows with Christian wording.  But could he have retained a Rabbi and
> a Priest to do a dual-demoninational wedding?  Is there a resolution?

I actually do not think Josh is a wimp.  It is very easy to bury one's head
in the sand and ignore the details.  Of course this attitude is too prevalent
in our society as it is (but's that another discussion).  What did it mean
to Josh to vow in the name of the Pater, Fillus, Et Spirtu Sactum?  Does
Josh feel the vow is binding.  Probably not because of it, but rather
despite it.  As for a dual-demoninational wedding; that's is a problem.
As I mentioned early, only a Reform rabbi will perform one.  And the Reform
movement is actively discouraging this.  The resolution is the JP wedding.
Why bring religion into it.  If neither party is religious enough not
to intermarry, why bring it into the ceremony.  If it's not going to
be part of their life together, it shouldn't be there at the start.

(BTW - I did remarry my wife in a Jewish ceremony just after she converted)

I know this is the views of one person, and I don't mean to get on a
soap box, but I hope you find what I say useful.  I am fairly well
conversant on the Jewish laws involved and the feeling of all the major
movements of Judaism on the issue, so please feel free to ask any
questions you might have.

                   enough from this mooncalf - Steven
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven R Weintraub                             | O Lord,
...!cs.utexas.edu!oakhill!stevenw              |   let me talk gently,
Motorola Inc.  Austin, Texas                   | for I might have to eat my
(512) 891-3023 (office) (512) 453-6953 (home)  |   words tomorrow.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

keith@uunet.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Keith McIntyre) (11/30/90)

> I'm a Jewish guy with a question about how intermarraiges are handled
> these days.  If you have experience with this situation, I would greatly
> appreciate you sharing your views with me, as I am very confused about it.

I am Gentile by heritage and my wife is Jewish, the reverse of what you are 
dealing with, but I can sympathize.
 
> I have attended two intermarraige weddings, both of them between male
> Jewish friends and Catholics.  The first was handled simply in a courtroom
> by a JP without any denominational references.  The parents could not
> resolve their problem, the couple didn't want to bother arguing about it
> anymore, so they just kept it simple.

This is the solution that we used. We were married in the house that I owned at the time. The only witnesses were the JP and another married couple that we
knew.

> Now, I know Josh, and he is a wimp.  He does not think much of his parents
> and probably does not realize how seriously he dishonered them by repeating
> his vows with Christian wording.  But could he have retained a Rabbi and
> a Priest to do a dual-demoninational wedding?  Is there a resolution?

Neither of us were wimps, but we knew this was an explosive situation. My
wife's mother still didn't speak to my wife for several months after the
wedding and my mother-in-law and I weren't on good terms for over 
a year. Other reactions from my wife's family were similar. 

We were married when both of us were not the least bit religious. Since then
we have both become very committed Christians. In retrospect I still think
that the JP solution caused the least grief of all the options. May God
guide your decisions on this matter - it can be very rough. I would fear that
a dual denominational wedding would just insult everyone, but only you can
make that decision.

BVAUGHAN@pucc.princeton.edu (Barbara Vaughan) (12/04/90)

In article <Nov.30.04.55.22.1990.5139@athos.rutgers.edu>, keith@uunet.Jpl.Nasa.G

>> I'm a Jewish guy with a question about how intermarraiges are handled
>> these days.  If you have experience with this situation, I would greatly
I didn't see the original posting, just the above followup.  I attended
the wedding of a friend that was performed jointly by a rabbi and a
Roman Catholic priest at the United Nations interfaith chapel.
The ceremony was carefully planned to include parts of the traditional
wedding service of both faiths.  The parents in this case were not
hostile to the marriage.  If I remember correctly, the most difficult
part was to find a rabbi willing to participate.  The bride's parish
parish priest was willing, but the groom was not an active member of a
synagogue and there were very few rabbis, even in the Reformed tradition,
who would agree to join in the service.  The U.N. chapel had a collection
of sample interfaith wedding services to assist in the planning.  Maybe
you could get copies from them.  I hope this was helpful.

Barbara Vaughan