[soc.religion.christian] info on the archangels sought

milano@dtrc.dt.navy.mil (Milano) (12/01/90)

I have recently become interested in the story about the war between
the archangels and those led by Lucifer. I have been unable to find
any reference to this common story in the bible. Can anyone shed a little
light on this for me? What is the real story, what caused this war,
where is it referenced, is it a Judaic story or Christian, who are the
seven archangels(names), who where the angels led by Lucifer...

thanks in advance - joel

vm0t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Vincent Paul Mulhern) (12/04/90)

Joel,
   Ezekiel 28 (I think...that's close if not exact) talks about it
(Prince of Tyre = the human ruler of Tyre...king of Tyre = spirit
influencing / motivating the human...this is pretty clear from the text
if you think about it) and so does Isaiah 14 (I think that's it...) 
These passages refer to how satan became satan.  Hope this gets you
started...I'll check on those scripture references and correct them if
they're not what I intended.  Jude 9 mentions one specific
confrontation, but it's not much help with what you're asking.

"This Present Darkness" & "Piercing the Darkness" by Frank Piretti
(contemporary) are excellent fiction that may give some insight...the
author claims there was given him a revelation about how these things
work, and I see no reason to doubt him.  

Jesus is Lord!
Vince Mulhern

st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) (12/04/90)

The question is raised:  where is the war in heaven mentioned in the Bible?

Revelation 12:7,8,9

And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the 
dragon.  And the dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong
enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.  And
the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the
devil
and Satan, who deceives the whole word; he was thrown down to the earth, and 
his angels were thrown down with him.

Michael is mentioned in the bible here and in Daniel and Jude, 
Gabriel is mentioned in Daniel and is usually considered an archangel.
Lucifer, who became the devil, was a covering cherub (Isaiah 14).  

Other archangels are mentioned in church traditions, as are other levels of 
angel.  But these are the only ones named in the Bible.

 Steven Timm  Physics Department  Carnegie Mellon
"Shame on you, and shame on you again
    for converting me into a bullet and
         shooting me into men's hearts."    Richard Harris  c 1972

tdaniels@athena.mit.edu (Troy E Daniels) (12/04/90)

In article <Dec.1.00.50.38.1990.23784@athos.rutgers.edu>, milano@dtrc.dt.navy.mil (Milano) writes:
|> I have recently become interested in the story about the war between
|> the archangels and those led by Lucifer. I have been unable to find
|> any reference to this common story in the bible. Can anyone shed a little
|> light on this for me? What is the real story, what caused this war,
|> where is it referenced, is it a Judaic story or Christian, who are the
|> seven archangels(names), who where the angels led by Lucifer...

The only scriptural reference that I could find is 


  LUK 10:18  And [Jesus] said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from        heaven,

referring to when Satan was cast out after losing the war.
There may be some OT references (Isiah comes to mind as a good place to check),
but I don't have a good reference program/bible here to check that out.

What I've been told, based on other references/extrascriptural sources/hearsay/
I-really-don't-know-what-source, is that Lucifer (which means Angel of Light, roughly) was an angel, second only to God in power.  However, he decided that he wanted to be first, so he got a bunch of other angels together, and they somehow attacked God and the angels faithful to him.  There was a big war between Lucifer and his followers, and Michael and the other angels on God's side.  In the end,
Lucifer and his followers were defeated, cast out of Heaven onto Earth, where God allows them to rule for the time being.  Lucifer was henceforth called Satan.

If anybody asks me for a reference on this, the answer is that 
Joe Christian-in-some-respected-position told me so about ten years ago.

|> 
|> thanks in advance - joel

Your welcome,
Troy Daniels
tdaniels@athena.mit.edu

lums@wheat-chex.ai.mit.edu (Andy Lumsdaine) (12/06/90)

In article <Dec.4.01.11.26.1990.977@athos.rutgers.edu> tdaniels@athena.mit.edu (Troy E Daniels) writes:

  The only scriptural reference that I could find is 


    LUK 10:18  And [Jesus] said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning
               fall from heaven, 


  referring to when Satan was cast out after losing the war.  There may
  be some OT references (Isiah comes to mind as a good place to check),
  but I don't have a good reference program/bible here to check that
  out.

  What I've been told, based on other references/extrascriptural
  sources/hearsay/ I-really-don't-know-what-source, is that Lucifer
  (which means Angel of Light, roughly) was an angel, second only to God
  in power.  However, he decided that he wanted to be first, so he got a
  bunch of other angels together, and they somehow attacked God an d the
  angels faithful to him.  There was a big war between Lucifer and his
  followers, and Michael and the other angels on God's side.  In the
  end, Lucifer and his followers were defeated, cast out of Heaven onto
  Earth, where God allows them to rule for the time being.  Lucifer was
  henceforth called Satan.

I think alot of the ideas about Lucifer / Satan in our culture are
primarily due to Milton and _Paradise_Lost_.  For instance, it is very
common to say the Serpent in the Garden was Satan -- but this is not
in the Genesis text at all.  I believe this idea is originally due to
Milton, but it is so pervasive in our culture (or, I should say, in
the churches which I attend), that most people talk about the Serpent
and Satan interchangeably.  In the above quotation from Luke, Jesus
just says that he "beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."  I see
no implication of a war in this passage.  Now, admittedly, Milton
based his work on Scripture (and Tradition, I assume), and he
undoubtedly had very good reasons for the conclusions he made.
However, his work is not Scripture, and one must be very careful in
using such sources in explaining the Scripture.

Peace,
Andrew



  Andrew Lumsdaine               "We don't understand the software, and 
  lums@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu       sometimes we don't understand the hardware, 
  MIT RLE                         but we can *see* the blinking lights!"

[That's not the only way to read Luke 10:18 of course.  The disciples
had just come back, reporting various miracles.  In context, one could
reasonably take Jesus' comment as being metaphorical -- that he saw
the success of the disciples mission as being the first step in the
victory of his Kingdom over Satan, and thus that he was watching Satan
losing his position of authority.  This is the interpretation adopted
by the Anchor Bible commentary on Luke.  --clh]

uriel@oak.circa.ufl.edu (Scott Whitmore) (12/06/90)

In article <Dec.4.01.04.09.1990.832@athos.rutgers.edu>, st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) writes:
>Other archangels are mentioned in church traditions, as are other levels of 
>angel.  But these are the only ones named in the Bible.
>

Raphael is named in Tobit, and Uriel (hence my handle!) in II Esdras, both
in OT Apocrypha, FYI.  These are usually considered Archangels along with
Michael, Gabriel, and two others (Zaphkiel and Ariel?  I can't remember).

> Steven Timm  Physics Department  Carnegie Mellon
>"Shame on you, and shame on you again
>    for converting me into a bullet and
>         shooting me into men's hearts."    Richard Harris  c 1972

Scott (part-time Archangel...)

--
Scott Whitmore         Internet: uriel@maple.circa.ufl.edu
24-510 Tolbert Hall	      or uriel@maple.decnet%pine.circa.ufl.edu
Gainesville, FL  32612 (USA)     Friendly Neighborhood Standard Disclaimer
"The Devil...the prowde spirit...cannot bear to be mocked." --Thomas More (?)

jhpb@granjon.garage.att.com (12/06/90)

Joel wrote:

    I have recently become interested in the story about the war between
    the archangels and those led by Lucifer. I have been unable to find
    any reference to this common story in the bible. Can anyone shed a
    little light on this for me? What is the real story, what caused
    this war, where is it referenced, is it a Judaic story or Christian,
    who are the seven archangels(names), who where the angels led by
    Lucifer...
    
There are three archangels mentioned by name in Scripture: Michael,
Gabriel, and Raphael.  The names are Hebrew, and mean the following:

Michael: Who is like God?
Gabriel: strength of God
Raphael: God has healed

Here are the places in Scripture where these angels are mentioned by
name:

Michael: Daniel 10:13, Daniel 12, Epistle of St. Jude, Apocalypse 12:7.
Gabriel: Daniel 8, Daniel 9, the announcement to Zachary of the birth of
    St. John the Baptist, the Annunciation (of the birth of our Lord to
    our Lady.)
Raphael: one of the main characters in the book of Tobias (AKA Tobit)

You asked about Michael in particular, so let me post what I can about
him.  (All this information comes from the Catholic encyclopedia
articles on Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Angel.)

The passage in Jude is an allusion to an ancient Jewish tradition of a
dispute over the body of Moses.  Satan wanted to turn the Jews to
idolatrous worship of Moses; Michael prevented this.  This Jewish
tradition is also found in the apocryphal work "The Assumption of
Moses."

I can't find anything about the battle in Heaven, as far as
extra-Scriptural sources goes.

Michael's name is appropriate, given the battle in Heaven.  Satan wanted
to be God; he was proud.  (See Isaias 14:12-14, Jer. 2:20) The name of
St.  Michael follows; his name is his battle cry: WHO IS LIKE GOD!  In
Catholic art, St.  Michael is depicted as an angel in armor, usually
trampling on the Devil, and with the words "Quid Ut Deus" (Who is like
God?) on his shield.

The angels were subjected to a moral test by God.  The ones who failed
became demons, Satan being the chief among them.  A common opinion among
Catholic theolgians is that the angels were shown the Incarnation and
commanded to worship the Son of God.  Human nature being so inferior to
the angelic one, some of the angels refused.  They couldn't stand the
idea that God would so lower Himself.  Thus the motto of Lucifer: non
serviam, "I shall not serve."

The circumstances of the appearance of the angels led to their
association with various things.  St. Michael, for example, is viewed as
champion against the Devil, and protector of the Catholic Church.  In
the Middle ages, he was the patron saint of knights, and his feast day
(September 29) was a holy day of obligation.  His help is invoked in
exorcisms, and used to be invoked for the conversion of Russia after
every Low Mass.

The names of the other 4 angels (of the 7 who stand before God) are
unknown.  One apocryphal source, the book of Enoch, names them Uriel,
Raguel, Sariel and Jerahmeel.  Other apocryphal sources have other
variants.

From the Apocalypse, it is thought that about 1/3 of the angels fell
(the dragon that swept 1/3 of the stars with his tail).

Here's the prayer that used to be said after Low Mass:

    Saint Michael the archangel, defend us in battle.  Be our protection
    against the wickedness and snares of the Devil.  May God rebuke him,
    we humbly pray, and do thou, O prince of the heavenly host, by the
    Divine power of God, cast into Hell Satan and all the evil spirits
    who wander throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls.  Amen.

Joe Buehler