milano@dtrc.dt.navy.mil (Milano) (12/01/90)
I have recently become interested in the story about the war between the archangels and those led by Lucifer. I have been unable to find any reference to this common story in the bible. Can anyone shed a little light on this for me? What is the real story, what caused this war, where is it referenced, is it a Judaic story or Christian, who are the seven archangels(names), who where the angels led by Lucifer... thanks in advance - joel
vm0t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Vincent Paul Mulhern) (12/04/90)
Joel, Ezekiel 28 (I think...that's close if not exact) talks about it (Prince of Tyre = the human ruler of Tyre...king of Tyre = spirit influencing / motivating the human...this is pretty clear from the text if you think about it) and so does Isaiah 14 (I think that's it...) These passages refer to how satan became satan. Hope this gets you started...I'll check on those scripture references and correct them if they're not what I intended. Jude 9 mentions one specific confrontation, but it's not much help with what you're asking. "This Present Darkness" & "Piercing the Darkness" by Frank Piretti (contemporary) are excellent fiction that may give some insight...the author claims there was given him a revelation about how these things work, and I see no reason to doubt him. Jesus is Lord! Vince Mulhern
st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) (12/04/90)
The question is raised: where is the war in heaven mentioned in the Bible? Revelation 12:7,8,9 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. And the dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole word; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Michael is mentioned in the bible here and in Daniel and Jude, Gabriel is mentioned in Daniel and is usually considered an archangel. Lucifer, who became the devil, was a covering cherub (Isaiah 14). Other archangels are mentioned in church traditions, as are other levels of angel. But these are the only ones named in the Bible. Steven Timm Physics Department Carnegie Mellon "Shame on you, and shame on you again for converting me into a bullet and shooting me into men's hearts." Richard Harris c 1972
tdaniels@athena.mit.edu (Troy E Daniels) (12/04/90)
In article <Dec.1.00.50.38.1990.23784@athos.rutgers.edu>, milano@dtrc.dt.navy.mil (Milano) writes: |> I have recently become interested in the story about the war between |> the archangels and those led by Lucifer. I have been unable to find |> any reference to this common story in the bible. Can anyone shed a little |> light on this for me? What is the real story, what caused this war, |> where is it referenced, is it a Judaic story or Christian, who are the |> seven archangels(names), who where the angels led by Lucifer... The only scriptural reference that I could find is LUK 10:18 And [Jesus] said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven, referring to when Satan was cast out after losing the war. There may be some OT references (Isiah comes to mind as a good place to check), but I don't have a good reference program/bible here to check that out. What I've been told, based on other references/extrascriptural sources/hearsay/ I-really-don't-know-what-source, is that Lucifer (which means Angel of Light, roughly) was an angel, second only to God in power. However, he decided that he wanted to be first, so he got a bunch of other angels together, and they somehow attacked God and the angels faithful to him. There was a big war between Lucifer and his followers, and Michael and the other angels on God's side. In the end, Lucifer and his followers were defeated, cast out of Heaven onto Earth, where God allows them to rule for the time being. Lucifer was henceforth called Satan. If anybody asks me for a reference on this, the answer is that Joe Christian-in-some-respected-position told me so about ten years ago. |> |> thanks in advance - joel Your welcome, Troy Daniels tdaniels@athena.mit.edu
lums@wheat-chex.ai.mit.edu (Andy Lumsdaine) (12/06/90)
In article <Dec.4.01.11.26.1990.977@athos.rutgers.edu> tdaniels@athena.mit.edu (Troy E Daniels) writes:
The only scriptural reference that I could find is
LUK 10:18 And [Jesus] said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning
fall from heaven,
referring to when Satan was cast out after losing the war. There may
be some OT references (Isiah comes to mind as a good place to check),
but I don't have a good reference program/bible here to check that
out.
What I've been told, based on other references/extrascriptural
sources/hearsay/ I-really-don't-know-what-source, is that Lucifer
(which means Angel of Light, roughly) was an angel, second only to God
in power. However, he decided that he wanted to be first, so he got a
bunch of other angels together, and they somehow attacked God an d the
angels faithful to him. There was a big war between Lucifer and his
followers, and Michael and the other angels on God's side. In the
end, Lucifer and his followers were defeated, cast out of Heaven onto
Earth, where God allows them to rule for the time being. Lucifer was
henceforth called Satan.
I think alot of the ideas about Lucifer / Satan in our culture are
primarily due to Milton and _Paradise_Lost_. For instance, it is very
common to say the Serpent in the Garden was Satan -- but this is not
in the Genesis text at all. I believe this idea is originally due to
Milton, but it is so pervasive in our culture (or, I should say, in
the churches which I attend), that most people talk about the Serpent
and Satan interchangeably. In the above quotation from Luke, Jesus
just says that he "beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." I see
no implication of a war in this passage. Now, admittedly, Milton
based his work on Scripture (and Tradition, I assume), and he
undoubtedly had very good reasons for the conclusions he made.
However, his work is not Scripture, and one must be very careful in
using such sources in explaining the Scripture.
Peace,
Andrew
Andrew Lumsdaine "We don't understand the software, and
lums@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu sometimes we don't understand the hardware,
MIT RLE but we can *see* the blinking lights!"
[That's not the only way to read Luke 10:18 of course. The disciples
had just come back, reporting various miracles. In context, one could
reasonably take Jesus' comment as being metaphorical -- that he saw
the success of the disciples mission as being the first step in the
victory of his Kingdom over Satan, and thus that he was watching Satan
losing his position of authority. This is the interpretation adopted
by the Anchor Bible commentary on Luke. --clh]
uriel@oak.circa.ufl.edu (Scott Whitmore) (12/06/90)
In article <Dec.4.01.04.09.1990.832@athos.rutgers.edu>, st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) writes: >Other archangels are mentioned in church traditions, as are other levels of >angel. But these are the only ones named in the Bible. > Raphael is named in Tobit, and Uriel (hence my handle!) in II Esdras, both in OT Apocrypha, FYI. These are usually considered Archangels along with Michael, Gabriel, and two others (Zaphkiel and Ariel? I can't remember). > Steven Timm Physics Department Carnegie Mellon >"Shame on you, and shame on you again > for converting me into a bullet and > shooting me into men's hearts." Richard Harris c 1972 Scott (part-time Archangel...) -- Scott Whitmore Internet: uriel@maple.circa.ufl.edu 24-510 Tolbert Hall or uriel@maple.decnet%pine.circa.ufl.edu Gainesville, FL 32612 (USA) Friendly Neighborhood Standard Disclaimer "The Devil...the prowde spirit...cannot bear to be mocked." --Thomas More (?)
jhpb@granjon.garage.att.com (12/06/90)
Joel wrote: I have recently become interested in the story about the war between the archangels and those led by Lucifer. I have been unable to find any reference to this common story in the bible. Can anyone shed a little light on this for me? What is the real story, what caused this war, where is it referenced, is it a Judaic story or Christian, who are the seven archangels(names), who where the angels led by Lucifer... There are three archangels mentioned by name in Scripture: Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael. The names are Hebrew, and mean the following: Michael: Who is like God? Gabriel: strength of God Raphael: God has healed Here are the places in Scripture where these angels are mentioned by name: Michael: Daniel 10:13, Daniel 12, Epistle of St. Jude, Apocalypse 12:7. Gabriel: Daniel 8, Daniel 9, the announcement to Zachary of the birth of St. John the Baptist, the Annunciation (of the birth of our Lord to our Lady.) Raphael: one of the main characters in the book of Tobias (AKA Tobit) You asked about Michael in particular, so let me post what I can about him. (All this information comes from the Catholic encyclopedia articles on Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Angel.) The passage in Jude is an allusion to an ancient Jewish tradition of a dispute over the body of Moses. Satan wanted to turn the Jews to idolatrous worship of Moses; Michael prevented this. This Jewish tradition is also found in the apocryphal work "The Assumption of Moses." I can't find anything about the battle in Heaven, as far as extra-Scriptural sources goes. Michael's name is appropriate, given the battle in Heaven. Satan wanted to be God; he was proud. (See Isaias 14:12-14, Jer. 2:20) The name of St. Michael follows; his name is his battle cry: WHO IS LIKE GOD! In Catholic art, St. Michael is depicted as an angel in armor, usually trampling on the Devil, and with the words "Quid Ut Deus" (Who is like God?) on his shield. The angels were subjected to a moral test by God. The ones who failed became demons, Satan being the chief among them. A common opinion among Catholic theolgians is that the angels were shown the Incarnation and commanded to worship the Son of God. Human nature being so inferior to the angelic one, some of the angels refused. They couldn't stand the idea that God would so lower Himself. Thus the motto of Lucifer: non serviam, "I shall not serve." The circumstances of the appearance of the angels led to their association with various things. St. Michael, for example, is viewed as champion against the Devil, and protector of the Catholic Church. In the Middle ages, he was the patron saint of knights, and his feast day (September 29) was a holy day of obligation. His help is invoked in exorcisms, and used to be invoked for the conversion of Russia after every Low Mass. The names of the other 4 angels (of the 7 who stand before God) are unknown. One apocryphal source, the book of Enoch, names them Uriel, Raguel, Sariel and Jerahmeel. Other apocryphal sources have other variants. From the Apocalypse, it is thought that about 1/3 of the angels fell (the dragon that swept 1/3 of the stars with his tail). Here's the prayer that used to be said after Low Mass: Saint Michael the archangel, defend us in battle. Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the Devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do thou, O prince of the heavenly host, by the Divine power of God, cast into Hell Satan and all the evil spirits who wander throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen. Joe Buehler