lanre@cascade.stanford.edu (Lanre Amos) (11/02/90)
here's what the instructor said in my counselling class at bible college: the scripture says "if a MAN will not provide for those of his household he has denied the faith and is worse than an infidel" so the woman should never have to work to support the family. it'a a different thing if she WANTS to work but even then the motive must not be to support the family. the closure to this is of-course the scripture that says "be content with what you have for God has said, 'I will never leave you nor forsake you...'" -L. but then, "as for God, His way is PERFECT".
kday@dtoa1.dt.navy.mil (Day) (11/06/90)
In article <Nov.2.03.02.30.1990.3906@porthos.rutgers.edu> lanre@cascade.stanford.edu (Lanre Amos) writes: >here's what the instructor said in my counselling class at bible college: > >the scripture says "if a MAN will not provide for those of his household >he has denied the faith and is worse than an infidel" > >so the woman should never have to work to support the family. it'a a >different thing if she WANTS to work but even then the motive must >not be to support the family. > Please take note of what the scripture is trying to say. It says "if a man WILL NOT provide for those of his household." Believe it or not, in our world today, though a man wants to provide for his family, sometimes he can't. Sometimes he may work 2 jobs and still not be able to make ends meet. Yes, that may be because their priorities are out of line. In that case, they need to reassess them. Sometimes it's because of the poor economy and sometimes because of lack of sound judgement in the past that they are paying for now. What do those people do who can't make it on the husbands income even if he's working more than one job, starve and not pay their bills? Does that bring glory to God? Did or did not God create Eve to be a helpmeet for Adam? Yes, he did. I agree, it's "best" for a woman to stay at home and raise the children and take care of things on the homefront while her husband brings in the necessary income and, yes, they should try to do all they can to do it that way. Sometimes alternative approaches have to be used. K. Scott Day David Taylor Research Center Bethesda, Maryland All thoughts expressed are strictly my own, though it's amazing this brain is still capable of having any. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The more one comes to know men, the more one comes to admire the dog." -Joussenel ------------------------------------------------------------------------
jcw6@midway.uchicago.edu (joe carl white) (11/06/90)
Sorry if this has already been brought up, but I've been away for a while. Has anyone brought up Galatians 3:28 as it concerns this topic? "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (NIV) -- Joe Carl Patrick Spontaneous White jcw6@midway.uchicago.edu University of Chicago Divinity School (312) 752-3810 (formerly of Rice University, the MOB 1156 E. 57th St. and things not frozen in general) Chicago, IL 60637
lins@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (Lindsay Gower) (11/06/90)
lanre@cascade.stanford.edu (Lanre Amos) writes: >the scripture says "if a MAN will not provide for those of his household >he has denied the faith and is worse than an infidel" >so the woman should never have to work to support the family. it'a a >different thing if she WANTS to work but even then the motive must >not be to support the family. My reading of this, juxtaposed to the lovely example of the wife of noble character of Proverbs 31, brings me to the opposite conclusion: the wife if she wants to work outside the home, may if her motive IS to support her family. Ok, let me define *support*: I think the first scripture quoted above means that a man must make every effort to provide for his family. He shouldn't be a lazy bum or rely on charity or his parents or whatever. So he is to try his best. And as we all know, trying your best does not always meet the bills. So I don't see that a wife, if she and her husband prayerfully agree, shouldn't go earn some money too. Read Proverbs 31:10-31. This woman's concern is to MAKE A COMFORTABLE, HAPPY HOME. She is a HOME-MAKER. She is not bogged down by odd rules about her physical location; her motive is to provide. She provides food, but it doesn't say if she cooks it. She buys fields, she plants vineyards. Does she have an MBA? She keeps healthy (does she go to Jazzercise?) She weaves; surely she could do that at home but it is work that requires concentration, so she can't mind the kids simultaneously. Maybe theyre at school or someone is minding them. She makes sure everyone is clothed, and warm in winter. She speaks with wisdom (maybe a class at church or the local college?). Now here's the kicker: her children call her blessed and her husband praises her! Obviously, they do not feel neglected. IMHO, a wife/mother is responsible to God to create a happy, peaceful comfortable home for her husband/family. Just how she goes about doing that is between her, her God and her husband and should not be contingent on precise amounts of time spent in tightly defined spaces. I believe scripture bears this out. Lindsay Gower UniSoft Corp lins@unisoft.com
beatle@sentry.larc.nasa.gov (Teresa Nicholls) (11/08/90)
I sort of look at it like you do, and believe, that a woman is to be a helper to her man. I think that I was meant to help him outside of the home as well as inside. I know (and was taught from a small child) how to cook, clean house, take care of children and can and do so (of my own place, and my sister's children). But since I got good grades, my parents wanted me to go to college, which I did and graduated. I dont want to think about getting married for another 3-4 years at least, to pretty much get a headstart on paying for my college loans, and finishing getting things for a place ( only have a sofa left to get). My point is that this way my mind is matured and I am mentally, emotionally and physically ready to be a good wife to my husband, and this is how I want to be a helpmeet to him (my view anyway). Teresa
jow@pacbell.com (Jeff Westman) (11/09/90)
In article <Nov.5.22.08.11.1990.21114@athos.rutgers.edu> jcw6@midway.uchicago.edu (joe carl white) writes: | "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are | all one in Christ Jesus." (NIV) Joe, I'm sure your intentions are pure, in that you want to illuminate the rest of us on a Scripture we might have missed, but I think **CONTEXT** is important here. The verse from Galations you have sited has to do with our **POSITION** in Christ, that is, God does not differentiate between mail or female (et al) with respect to our **SPIRITUAL** position -- salvation is available and attainable by all who call on His name. God doesn't play favorites. The verse you quoted has absolutely **NOTHING** to do with a man's responsibility to care and provide for his family (from 2 Tim 3 or 5, I believe, from an earlier posting(s)). This not evade the fact the God commands the man to provide for his family, and puts the responsibility of the home on the woman (same passage -- I wish I had my Bible with me today!). I knew a fellow christian with three kids. He was doing part-time constuc- tion at the time, trying to get on full-time with the local Fire Department (he was number one on the waiting list -- for about a year-and-a-half!). He absolutely **REFUSED** to let his wife work; not because of "mail ego", but because he was doing what God wanted him to do. For a time, he was even working two jobs. Needless to say, he didn't get to see his kids much. Mean- while, his wife took care of the home, again, according to his beliefs. To make a long story short, God has richly blessed his marriage; he also got the job he'd been trying for, which works out great for the whole family because of the way the FD rotates their shifts (24 hrs on/3 days off). We all thought he was crazy. But by his determination and faith, God was faithful. I understand financial hardships. But we must obey God's commands. And then those areas that are not clearly spelled out, that is where Christian liberties take place. -- Jeff
gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) (11/29/90)
Since I started this thread some time back, I want to jump back into the middle of it. Let me start by saying "Bravo, Lindsay Gower!!" I'd like to point something out to folks. Until shortly after WWII, most Americans were self-employed. That is, they worked for themselves and were not captive employees as we find ourselves today. A wife did work to help support her family. She might do sewing, gardening and raise chickens (she would sell eggs and some chickens for profit), and there were many other forms of labor for which a woman could make money, and quite often without having to "work outside the home." Within farming communities, it has never been uncommon to see wives working in the fields with their husbands and children. I believe that a wife is to be a good homemaker. However, I also believe that a husband is just as responsible for the home as the wife. I often find myself doing dishes, cooking, running clothes through the washing/drying bit, and other household chores. I find no evidence in Scripture that says that this sort of thing is purely women's work. My wife will mow the grass and often repair things around the house. We are after all making a home *together*. When my wife fixes something around the house, it really pleases me because it means that I don't have to worry as much about things. And when I do some task that is usually confined to the "woman's world," such as washing, drying, and folding laundry, it really pleases my wife for the same reason. Further, it shows our mutual respect and love for each other, plus our submission to each other. Submission is one of those two-way streets in our lives. Yes, my wife is to submit to me. But if I'm not in submission to my Head, she is going to have a hard time with submitting to my headship. Additionally, we are both to be in submission to Christ. If I'm not, then there is a serious problem within the family. In today's world, most of us cannot make a living working for ourselves as our forefathers did (or possibly even our own grandparents for some of us "ancient ones" ;-)). So a wife working outside the home is not something that I find at odds with Scripture. The idea that she can do so unless she is helping to support her family seems a bit odd to me. Granted, a man is supposed to support his family, but a wife, according to the Bible, is the a "helpmeet." That a wife helps in supporting a family seems perfectly in accord with the Scriptures. When there are children involved, I still have questions about, but no easy answers. I do know that often Christian families find themselves faced with this problem, increasingly. For a long time now, there has been one group within the Christian body that has flatly said that a wife must never work outside the confines of the home. Sometimes I feel that there is a great deal of legalism involved in this position. Personally, I think that the decision has to be left up to the individual Christian families to solve for themselves. The Church has a responsibility to give as much aid and teaching on this as possible, but it is not the Church's position to establish some new law of the Gospel. There is liberty in Christ, and we should live freely within that liberty being led by the Spirit in all things. A while back there were some comments about the role of the husband in childcare. I have changed diapers, gotten up for early morning feedings, stayed up with a sick child, tended to "wounds" earned in the combat of play, played with my children, answered the tough questions, and more. I enjoyed being a father, and miss my children very much. I would not have missed any part of their growing up if I'd have had my way about it. Unfortunately, sometimes business got in the way and I had to be off in other parts of the country while they were still at home. But my kids always knew that I was there for them. So to answer my own question, can a wife work outside the home? I would answer with, why not? If a husband and wife pray about this matter and determine that it is correct for them, why should any of us stop them? If they decide otherwise, why should any of us call them into question for it? Is this really an essential of the Faith? Yours in Christ, Gene Gross
gerwitz@uunet.uu.net (Paul Gerwitz) (12/04/90)
In article <Nov.29.00.17.06.1990.14718@athos.rutgers.edu>, gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) writes: Post deleted due to length............... |> So to answer my own question, can a wife work outside the home? I would |> answer with, why not? If a husband and wife pray about this matter and |> determine that it is correct for them, why should any of us stop them? |> If they decide otherwise, why should any of us call them into question |> for it? Is this really an essential of the Faith? |> |> Yours in Christ, |> |> Gene Gross Thanks Gene for you thoughtful comments. I find myself in agreement with most of what you wrote, still thinking about the rest. I would bring up one point for the group to consider regarding this issue.. It is up to each of us, husbands and wifes, to discern our 'role' with regard to our families. We should spend much time in prayer and study to determine God's direction in this area. We also need to realize that the society we live in has replaced or is evolving different roles for men and women that are contrary to God's plan. It is this process of discernment that seems to be lacking these days. It is not an easy thing to come to grips with in our fast-paced, materialistic society. But it is essential for ourselves, our marraiges and our children. My wife and I discerned very early in our marraige that her role included being a homemaker. We have endured many periods of financial stress and lack in the last 10 years with only one salary. The fruit of that decision cannot be measured, as good has helped us meet our regular financial needs (house, food, clothing) but also has provided us enough to send all our children to catholic school as well as a yearly family vacation. I think for us the reliance on God to provide our needs rather than ourselves or the world has helped us keep everything in perpective. I have a tape from Focus on the Family (Dr. Dobson's Ministry) that has an excellent panel discussion with 4 career women who are now full time homemakers. Great discussion of the keys issues. I will post the info for getting a copy on Moday In the Love of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit...... Paul look on our decision as 'old-fashioned', repressive to my wife -- +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Paul F Gerwitz WA2WPI | SMTP: gerwitz@kodak.com | | Eastman Kodak Co | UUCP: ..uunet!atexnet!kodak!eastman!gerwitz | +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
gerwitz@uunet.uu.net (Paul Gerwitz) (12/06/90)
In article <Dec.4.00.33.49.1990.364@athos.rutgers.edu>, sisd!kodak!gerwitz@uunet.uu.net (Paul Gerwitz) writes: |> |> I have a tape from Focus on the Family (Dr. Dobson's Ministry) that has an |> excellent panel discussion with 4 career women who are now full time |> homemakers. Great discussion of the keys issues. I will post the info for |> getting a copy on Moday Call 1-800-AFAMILY (1-800-232-6459) ++ Not a commercial endorsement ++ Just a GOOD Tape or Write: Focus on the Family Pamona, Ca 91799 Ask for Tape CS-518 "Career Homemaking" |> |> In the Love of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit...... |> |> Paul |> look on our decision as 'old-fashioned', repressive to my wife ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ SORRY for the sloppy editing, disregard this "orphaned" sentence -- +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Paul F Gerwitz WA2WPI | SMTP: gerwitz@kodak.com | | Eastman Kodak Co | UUCP: ..uunet!atexnet!kodak!eastman!gerwitz | +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+