jdd@db.toronto.edu (John DiMarco) (08/17/89)
We cannot be reconciled to God by ourselves. Clearly God must save us.
Hence our salvation is up to him. God wants all people to be saved, but
clearly he does not give the same amount of grace (unmerited favour) to
everybody. Does everyone have Christ appear to him on the road, like
Paul? Does everyone see Christ in the flesh, like the Apostles? Clearly
God does more to save some people than he does to save others.
I believe that God offers every person sufficient grace for salvation.
Nothing else is consistent with God's mercy, justice, and love. But not every
person receives the same amount of grace. God goes to great lengths to bring
some people to salvation, but seems to allow others to go their own way.
God predestines his elect by giving them great gifts of his grace. Only those
whom God has chosen receive these graces. But nowhere in scripture does it say
that God predestines some to receive no grace at all; i.e. to perish in
hellfire. He does harden hearts, but he doesn't petrify them.
John
---
John DiMarco INTERNET: jdd@db.toronto.edu or jdd@db.utoronto.ca
BITNET: jdd%db.toronto.edu@relay.cs.net
UUCP: {uunet!utai,watmath!utai,decvax!utcsri}!db!jddpalosaari@tiger.oxy.edu (Jedidiah Jon Palosaari) (08/17/89)
Dave Mielks writes
>We must remember that God can, with certain foreknowlege, intervene
We must also remember that He often chooses not to. If we are all
just a race of robots, then there is nothing special about this God. And
if He does intervene concerning our salvation, and not just know ahead of
time, then I still don't understand why He didn't make us all Christians,
instead of allowing Adam/Eve to sin.davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) (09/01/89)
In article <Aug.17.03.45.33.1989.14571@athos.rutgers.edu> jdd@db.toronto.edu (John DiMarco) writes: >God predestines his elect by giving them great gifts of his grace. Only those >whom God has chosen receive these graces. But nowhere in scripture does it say >that God predestines some to receive no grace at all; i.e. to perish in >hellfire. He does harden hearts, but he doesn't petrify them. I am going to give you a few Scriptures to think about. I shall withold my opinions on exactly what these Scriptures mean and trust that the Word of God can speak for itself. 1 Peter 2:7-8 says "Unto you therefore which believe {he is} precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, {even to them} which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.". Notice the phrase "whereunto also they were appointed". Jude 4 says "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.". Notice the phrase "who were before ordained of old to this condemnation". Romans 9:18-23 says "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will {have mercy}, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed {it}, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? {What} if God, willing to show {his} wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,". Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 856 Grenon Avenue Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2B 6G3
plaisted@cs.unc.edu (David Plaisted) (11/15/89)
So far I have stayed out of the predestination discussion and usually only read about the first 5 - 10 lines of any posting about it. However, it does seem that one point has not been emphasized enough. The rationale for predestination is that nothing we do makes us worthy of salvation. The assumption is, that if you believe in free will, then you believe that something you do makes you in some degree worthy of salvation. I believe that this is false. All we can do is to submit to God. We can freely choose to submit or not to submit. However, there is no merit in submission. We are not saved because of anything good or bad that we do. Those who are saved are not any better people, in themselves, than those who are lost. The difference is that they submit to God's leading them to accept Him and believe in Him. Then they submit to the leading of the Holy Spirit to strive after righteousness, which leads to obedience. But, even when we obey, we are unworthy servants, and have only done our duty (Luke 17:10). The only righteousness we have is the righteousness of Christ, which we have accepted and which has been worked out in our characters. Jacob and Esau were alike sinful, as their early history shows. God chose Jacob, not because of anything good or evil that he did (Romans 9:11), but because the Lord saw that he could be led to submit and repent. Dave Plaisted plaisted@cs.unc.edu Let us know, let us press on to know the Lord. His going forth is sure as the dawn. He will come to us as the showers, as the spring rain that waters the earth.
ejalbert@phoenix.princeton.edu (Edmund Jason Albert) (11/17/89)
In article <Nov.15.03.20.18.1989.11571@athos.rutgers.edu> plaisted@cs.unc.edu (David Plaisted) writes: >However, it does seem that one point has not been emphasized enough. >The rationale for predestination is that nothing we do makes us worthy >of salvation. The assumption is, that if you believe in free will, >then you believe that something you do makes you in some degree worthy >of salvation. I believe that this is false. > All we can do is to submit to God. We can freely choose to >submit or not to submit. However, there is no merit in submission. My understanding of predestination was that we had no choice as to whether or not we submitted, but that God elected us through no merit and that we had no right of refusal. I believe in free will. I do not believe that I can do anything that merits salvation; however, I believe when Jesus said he came for all men that He caused salvation to be open to all. Our free will comes in our right to refuse. I cannot believe that God condemned men before their births to damnation. Certainly I believe God is omnipotent and omniscient; however, on salvation He has left the choice up to us because what makes our love valuable to God is that we give it freely, not through coercion. Jason Albert Princeton University [What what it's work, the Reformers' reaction to your position would be roughly this: while you certainly don't claim to merit salvation, you do claim that the reason you are saved and someone else is not is because of something you have done. So in some sense this still makes salvation depend upon you. You say, "but it's not like I am claiming to do some great meritorious act. All I have to do is say yes. The rest is up to God." Luther's answer is that this is even worse. If you are going to make salvation depend upon something you do, it least it should be something great and lofty. I guess ultiamtely the difference is that they take a more radical view of the consequences of sin. They believe that if God leaves anything to us -- even just the right to say yes or no -- we'll blow it. This is not just a negative point. For Luther at least, predestination was a great consolation. He could never quite bring himself to have confidence in anything he did. To realize that salvation depends completely on God's action was a great relief to him. I do understand the problem with this: how can depending upon God only be a relief if we can't be sure whether he's chosen us or not? I'm not sure quite why this didn't bother them. It seems that Luther's great anxiety was not so much over whether he was going to be saved, but over whether he had done all he needed to. However for later Calvinists, the big existential question became how they could be sure that they were one of the elect. The only way to combine the good points of both views seems to be to believe in predestination, but to believe that everyone is elect... --clh]
ejalbert@phoenix.princeton.edu (Edmund Jason Albert) (11/20/89)
>God's action was a great relief to him. I do understand the problem >with this: how can depending upon God only be a relief if we can't be >sure whether he's chosen us or not? I'm not sure quite why this For me this is not a problem, if one believes in predestination, one just trusts in God and prays. My problem comes in that Jesus said he died for all men and their salvation. Either a) One believes He was lying. b) One believes that all men are elect (hard to believe with people like Adolf Hitler around) c) One does not believe in predestination, since if God condemned men to damnation before the beginning of time, then Jesus could not have died for their salvation. Jason Albert Princeton University
davem@watmath.waterloo.edu (Dave Mielke) (11/24/89)
In article <Nov.19.14.48.59.1989.13837@athos.rutgers.edu> ejalbert@phoenix.princeton.edu (Edmund Jason Albert) writes: >My problem comes in that Jesus said he died for all men and their >salvation. Either I wish you had quoted a Scripture or two where you feel that Jesus made the claim that He died for each and every person who has ever lived. I do not believe that He ever said such a thing. I believe He taught exactly the opposite. In John 17:9, for example, He says "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.". Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 856 Grenon Avenue Ottawa, Ontario, Canada K2B 6G3
coatta@cs.ubc.ca (Terry Coatta) (11/27/89)
OFM writes: >Generally those who do not believe in predestination acknowledge that >God is able to predict who will respond to his attempts at persuasion. >He knows that if this and that happens to a person, and if the Holy >Spirit speaks to him in just this way, how he will respond. I don't >necessarily mean to imply any specific kind of determinism in human >affairs. But I think that one way or another, Christians normally >assume that God knows what is going to happen. I am curious as to the degree to which this assumption is ``normal'' amongst Christians. I do not believe in predestination. The only manner in which I have been able to reconcile my belief in free will with God's omniscience is to assume that God willfully suppresses this omniscience. I think that the primary question with respect to predestination is the nature of human decisions. Those who believe in free will, it seems to me, have a desire to know that the decisions which they make are independent of the will of any other being, including God. If God did not limit his omniscience the he would know, in perfect detail, every aspect of each of his creations. Indeed, God would be the author of every decision, action, and thought of that being, because at the moment of creation he would aware of, and controlling the creation of all aspects of that being. In effect, omniscience means that when God creates a being he effectively creates the whole sequence of its life. The will is all God's. By willfully restricting his omniscience, God permits us to act independently of him. Another pertinent question is why the concept of free will is considered important. Perhaps there is the appearance of arrogance, the desire to declare independence from God. I think this is an unfortunate (and uncharitable) viewpoint. The question of free will is simply the question of the nature of ``being'' in another guise. God created us in his image. What does this mean? In what sense is the word ``image'' being used? The notion that God is somehow physically similar to me seems unlikely. Yet the existence of passage from scripture indicating that I was created in God's image suggests that God considered it important for me to know that I am, in some fundamental aspect, similar to him. God is essential being, an eternally existent will. I believe that, through the gift of creation, God has given me being -- the ability to exercise my will. My belief in free will then, is simply my belief that God has shared the nature of his being with us. Terry Coatta Dept. of Computer Science, UBC, Vancouver BC, Canada coatta@grads.cs.ubc.ca `What I lack in intelligence, I more than compensate for with stupidity'
lab@fibercom.com (Lance Beckner) (01/18/90)
INTRODUCTION:
It is only my goal here to share with others what I have learned.
I hope that someone my benefit from my study. This is not my
proclamation of *the* answer to the predestination question. I of
course hope and pray that my conclusions are at least partially
correct.
This posting is the result of careful and prayerful study. Since
I have been reading the discussions on this group while also
continuing my study, not everything here will be original.
Please insert "IMHO" wherever it seems appropriate.
All scripture quotations are from the New King James Version.
PART 1: THE CREATION AND FALL OF MAN
Now exactly why God created man is not clear. Although there does
seem to be some evidence that fellowship was at least *part* of the
reason.
While Adam and Eve were in their unfallen state, God blessed them
and told them to fill the earth. We can only assume that it was
God's intention that they fill the Earth with sinless humans such
as themselves.
I won't go into all of the details of the fall since I don't feel
that it is really necessary to do so. However, I do think that it
is important to note that if Adam and Eve would have "filled the
earth" in their sinless state, they would have produced sinless
offspring (assuming that the offspring didn't go for the tree).
In there sinful state, therefore, they produced sinful offspring.
(Romans 5:12)
The results of the fall are pretty serious. In particular, the
relationship between God and man *really* turned bad. All of a
sudden, man had a wicked heart and contempt for God.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the
glory of God.
Psalm 14:2-3 The LORD looks down from heaven upon the
children of men, to see if there are any
who seek God. They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt; there
is none who does good, no not one.
Eccl 7:20 For there is not a just man on earth who
does good and does not sin.
Even our "good" deeds and best behavior don't count for much.
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all like an unclean thing, and
all our righteousnesses are like filthy
rags; we all fade as a leaf, and our
iniquities, like the wind, have taken us
away.
Isaiah goes on to say, in the last part of verse 7, that because
of these iniquities, God has hidden his face from us. The result
of our sin (and our sin nature), is separation from God in the
present, and for eternity.
What I want to point out is that everyone is basically the same.
If the earth had been filled by sinless humans, then we would all
be sinless humans. We would have all had fellowship with God
there would be no problem of separation, and no need for a Savior.
Sounds nice doesn't it? But we know that sin did enter in. And
the important thing to realize is that we are all still basically
the same. That is, there is really no difference between myself
and Adolf Hitler, there is no difference between Billy Graham and
Nero. The good people are good in our eyes, but fall way short of
God's standard. The bad people are bad in our eyes, and fall just
as short of God's standard as anyone. That is why no one can
come to the Father except through Jesus.
PART 2: THE SAME, BUT DIFFERENT.
As already discussed, all men are basically the same. None of us
seek God. Yet, in spite of all of this, there are still two
categories of people: the SAVED and the LOST.
Why?
If everyone is a God rejecting, rebellious soul, why can we be
divided into the SAVED and LOST categories? There are, as I see
it, two options here:
Option 1
God hand picks those who will be saved and those who will be
lost. In other words, God hates some while He loves others.
As unappealing as this looks on the surface, there actually
is scriptural support for this view.
A. In Proverbs 6:16-19, we read of the seven things that are
an abomination to the LORD. The last two, a false witness
speaking lies, and one who sows discord among the brethren,
tell us that God not only hates the acts, but He also hates
the people committing the acts. In other words, it would
appear from this passage of scripture that God does not love
the sinner while hating their sin. Rather, He hates the
sinner and their sin.
B. The Bible says that God loved Jacob and Hated Esau (See
Malachi 1 and Romans 9). The passage in Romans continues on
with the love/hate aspect of Gods character. It is probably
one of the strongest supports for the idea that God picks and
chooses who will be saved and who will be lost. Please
carefully read the ninth chapter, especially verses 18
through 24. The implication here is that God specifically
created some for destruction and others for glory.
C. Mark 4:11-12. And He said to them, "To you it has been
given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those
who are outside, all things come in parables, so that 'Seeing
they may see and not perceive, and hearing they may hear and
not understand; lest they should turn, and their sins be
forgiven them.'"
It would appear, from this passage of scripture, that there
are some people out there that God does not want to save.
Option 2
Although we are all the same, there is *some* difference (and
God loves us all).
There is also scriptural support for this view.
A. We Are All The Same.
I know that we have already looked at this some. But I want
to go further and show that there is no difference between
someone who is lost, and a Christian before he knew Christ.
1. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all
acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to
save sinners, of whom I am chief. 1 Timothy 1:15
2. And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses
and sins, in which you once walked according to the
course of this world, according to the prince of the
power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons
of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted
ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the
desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature
children of wrath, just as the others.
Ephesians 2:1-3
In the first example, Paul calls himself the chief sinner.
Obviously, he is a Christian at this point in his life. But
he is telling Timothy that Jesus came to save sinners. And
he identifies himself with that lot.
In the second example, Paul is telling the Ephesians
(Christians) that they were once just like the others, sons
of disobedience deserving God's wrath.
There is basically no difference between what a Christian
*used* to be, and what a non-christian is now.
B. God Loves Us All.
Even though there is scriptural evidence that God hates
sinners (Proverbs 6), there is also abundant evidence that
God loves sinners and wishes for all men to be saved.
We love Him because He first loved us. 1 Jn 4:19
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that
while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:8
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some
count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not
willing that any should perish, but that all should come
to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our
Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to
the knowledge of truth. 1 Timothy 2:2-3
"For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that
which was lost." Luke 19:10
If Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost, and
all of humanity is lost, then Jesus came to save all of
humanity. Obviously, we can not ignore the passage in
Proverbs 6 that tells us that God hates sinners. However, we
must look at that passage in the light of the other passages
that tell us that God loves all of humanity. The only way
that I can see to reconcile the difference, is to say that
God does hate us because of our sins and our sin nature, and
yet, at the same time, He loves us. Why does He love us? I
don't know. The only possible answer that I can come up with
is that He loves us because He wants to.
C. There Is *Some* Difference.
The conclusion that there is a difference between the saved
and the lost is inescapable. That is to say, the saved are
saved, and the lost are lost. Even if you follow the theory
that God chooses some to be saved and others to be lost, you
still must concede that there is a difference. The fact that
some are chosen and others are unchosen make them different.
But here I am going to try to look at another difference.
As we have already established, there is none that seek after
God. If it were not for divine intervention, all would be
lost. But, God did intervene. While we were yet sinners,
Christ died for us (Romans 5:8). Okay, so, God intervened.
Big deal. We still aren't the type of people that go around
seeking after God. Why would we seek out His Son? The sad
fact of the matter is, we wouldn't.
Rather than seeking God, it seems that He seeks us out.
"For the Son of Man has come to seek and to
save that which was lost." Luke 19:10
It is God who is working to bridge the gap between sinful man
and Himself. But, if God wants *all* of sinful man to be
saved, why will only some be saved? This is where we get into
the 'difference'.
...He is a rewarder of those who diligently
seek Him. Hebrews 11:6
And yet, we have already shown that we do not seek God, He
seeks us. So a better way of looking at the passage in
Hebrews would be to say that the Lord is a rewarder of those
who *respond* to His seeking. Salvation is a gift from God
(Ephesians 2:8) and the gift is available to all because He
is willing that none should perish (2 Peter 3:9), and he
desires that all men be saved (1 Timothy 2:3). However, many
will reject this gift because they love the darkness rather
than the light (John 3:19).
Truly, none of us would seek after God on our own. And
salvation is the work of God. He starts it and He finishes
it. But the offer is open to all. Christians are not saved
because we ask God to save us. Rather, Christians are saved
because when God asks the question, "Will you let me save
you?" We answer, "Yes". I have always believed that we do
not ask God to give us salvation, we thank Him for giving it
to us.
This is the difference. Some will realize that they need the
savior and accept God's gift. Others will not realize their
need, and reject His gift. (I even know of some who realize
their need and *still* reject His gift because they do not
want to change the way that they live. I can not understand
this at all.)
PART 3: EXPLANATIONS
If option 2 is the correct one, then what about all of the problems
that option 1 gives us?
Hopefully, I have already adequately explained Proverbs 6. That
God does hate us (because of our sin), and yet He also loves us
(because He wants to).
The passage in Romans 9 is a little more difficult to figure out.
Indeed, I may not have it all figured out. The first problem, that
of Jacob and Esau, may not be as serious as it first appears. When
God says that He hated Esau, what does it mean? Possibly this is
the same type of situation where Jesus tells us that we must hate
our mothers and fathers (Luke 14:26). Certainly He did not really
mean that we should *hate* them. In context, we see that Jesus was
talking about discipleship; and that, if we wanted to follow Him,
we had to hate our loved ones. I think that most people would
agree that Jesus wanted for us to follow Him even if it meant going
against the wishes of those that we love. He wanted us to choose
Him if it came to making a choice. I think that is what Romans 9
is talking about. God made a choice between Jacob and Esau. He
chose Jacob over Esau.
The second problem with this passage, that of vessels for glory and
vessels for destruction is a bit harder to explain. But as I see
it, we have the same situation (and hopefully this will be clearer
in PART 5). God has pre-determined that those who will respond to
his offer of salvation by accepting it, will be partakers of glory.
Conversely, those that reject His offer will be destroyed.
Unfortunately, I don't really have a good answer for Mark 4:11-12.
But I don't think that it is as big of a problem as it appears to
be on the surface. This passage tells us that Jesus spoke in
parables so that not everyone would know what He was really saying.
Yet, often, His own disciples would have to ask for an explanation.
If the things were spoken in parables to keep some from under-
standing and repenting, then that was only true (for whatever
reason) for that particular time. Because now, with the written
word of God, we do have the explanations for those parables. With
the explanations recorded, the parables are no longer "mysteries".
Besides, if God does choose those that will be saved, and the
natural man (without God's help) can not understand the things of
God, then a clear direct gospel message from the Savior Himself
would not bring one to repentance if God had not chosen that one
to be born again.
In short, to presume that God would choose to save some of sinful
man, while choosing to exclude a majority of men from the offer of
this gift, is a bit inconsistent. That is to say, if all of sinful
men were deserving of God's wrath, and God hates sinners, on what
basis would He choose some?
PART 4: ARGUMENTS ANSWERED
Below are the arguments (as best as I can recall) against my
position. I will try to answer these in a manner that is
consistent with the Word of God.
A. God's word returning void.
One argument that was mentioned once before, is that if God
says His Word will not return void (Isaiah 55:11), then surely
all who the Word went out to would be saved. I am not sure
that this has to be the case. If the Lord's Word goes out to
one hundred people, and five people accept God's gift of
eternal life, has His word returned void? I would say not.
What if only one was saved? Again, I would say that the Word
of God did not return void. Remember, there is rejoicing in
the heavens when just one sinner repents (Luke 15:7)
B. Reason to boast (Ephesians 2:9).
If we are saved by responding to the work of God in our life,
do we have reason to boast? Surely, a person who "figures
out" salvation could say, "Hey, I'm saved because *I* figured
out what I must do to be saved." Or they could say, "God gave
me the gift, and *I* was smart enough to accept; but *they*
were too dumb to accept this great offer." The problem is
that a person such as this would be missing the point. The
fact of the matter is, when we come to the cross, we come as
beggars. We deserve the full force of God's wrath. It is as
if we are drowning, going under for the third time, and God
throws us a rope. Surely someone in this position would not
come out of the water boasting. Rather, they would be forever
grateful to the One who had saved them. So too, when we
realize exactly what God has done for us, can only offer Him
thanks and praise for being the wonderful merciful God that
He is.
Besides, if we were to take the view that "God chose to love
me, but He chose to hate you", there could also be reason to
boast. Surely the thought would occur, "There must be
*something* about me that He liked if He saved me but left so-
and-so lost." Yes, even if God did pick and choose this way,
I would agree that the boasting would be wrong. But so would
the boasting be wrong in the previous example. Regardless of
which model is correct with regard to predestination, there
is never any reason to boast.
PART 5: SO WHAT *IS* PREDESTINATION?
Well, the bible *does* teach that there is such a thing as
predestination. But what exactly is it?
I think that the answer is tied up in the words: "predestination",
"election", and "foreknowledge".
Romans 8:29-30
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to
the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among
many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also
called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He
justified, these He also glorified.
Ephesians 1:4-5
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to
Himself, according to the good purpose of His will.
1 Peter 1:1-2
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the pilgrims of the
Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in
sanctification of the Spirit, for the obedience and sprinkling
of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be
multiplied.
As I see it, the elect are elect because of God's foreknowledge.
That is, God knew before the foundation of the world who would
respond in a positive manner to His offer. These are the elect.
The chosen ones were chosen by God because they would accept His
free gift of eternal life. And, according to the passage in
Romans, those whom God foreknew, He also predestined to be
conformed to the image of His Son. This is the work of the Holy
Spirit in the life of the believer, to continue to change a person
from within to be what God wants them to be. He also predestined
us (who would believe) to be adopted into His family.
Does this mean that God actively works in every person's life to
give them a chance? Maybe not. The offer of salvation is a
legitimate offer to anyone who wants to accept it. However, God
would definitely know who would and would not accept it. In other
words, if God knew that no matter how hard He were to try, that a
certain individual would still reject His offer, He would certainly
be justified in not even bothering with the individual. That
person would still be guilty of rejecting the offer even though God
did not actively pursue the relationship.
PART 6: THE PROBLEMS WITH MY VIEW.
Admittedly, my answer does not neatly tie up all of the loose ends
the way that I would like for it to. There is still the unanswered
question about Mark 4:11-12. There are also a couple of other
problems that I will try to define below. (And quite probably more
that I am unaware of)
Why The Difference?
If we are all basically the same, why is it that some will
respond to God's work in their lives but others will not? I don't
know the answer to that. But it is not as troubling as the
question, "if we are all basically the same, why does a just God
love some while He hates others?"
Faith As A Gift.
If faith is a gift of God (as Eph. 2:8 says) then why has God
given some this gift, but not others? Maybe He gives the gift of
faith to those that begin to respond, but does not give it to the
unresponsive sinner.
PART 7: THANKS
As I said at the beginning, this is by no means my proclamation of
"THE ANSWER". I do hope and pray that the Lord has led me to His
truth in this study. Of course, I have no way of knowing for sure
just how right or wrong I am. No matter how sincere my efforts of
objective study are, I am still a sinful man whose own ideas and
preconceived notions could get in the way. I am just thankful that
we don't have to pass a theology exam to get into Heaven. I thank
God that I can enter in by the blood of Christ.
Peace to you brothers and sisters,
Lance
--
Lance A. Beckner INTERNET: lab@fibercom.com
FiberCom, Inc. UUCP: ...!uunet!fibercom!lab
P.O. Box 11966 FAX: (703) 342-5961
Roanoke, VA 24022-1966 PHONE: (703) 342-6700charles@rpi.edu (Charles K. Hurst) (12/17/90)
[This is a response to Joe Buehler's posting on predestination, though the only name that appeared in the original was David Wagner. Joe attempted to explain Augustine's ideas: God grants grace to everyone. But some are not saved. The difference lies in free will: some will ill use of their free will and resist grace. God knows how man is going to respond. This means that he knows a particular combination of graces that would cause any man to become a model of sanctity of virtue. --clh] Joe, I think you are setting yourself up as an easy target with this statement. If God knows "EXACTLY which graces will cause any particular man to become a model of sanctity and virtue" (saved, I believe you are saying), and if he applies such knowledge, then everyone should go to heaven. Ok, Joe, the big question for ten billion dollars: (drum roll) Why is God not responsible for people going to hell? Since he can apply the conditions that will cause them to go to heaven, then by NOT applying such graces he is responsible for their going to hell. If he does apply graces, they go to heaven. If he doesn't, they go to hell. HIS CHOICE, Joe, that is what you are saying here. Maybe you didn't mean to, but it is what you are implying. I find this argument on Predestination a little silly. God knows everything that has, is, and will happen. He is timeless and beyond the limitations of time. "Alpha and Omega" and "I am", right? But just because He knows who will be saved doesn't mean he MAKES people saved. If he wishes to let us make the choice by our FREE WILL, then he must leave the ultimate decision up to us. This is not to say that he won't do anything to try to influence it, :), but if he presents an "indisputable" case, I think our free will and general stubbornness will allow us to still say NO. Having a free will means that it must be possible for us to say NO even if God wants us to say YES. Furthermore, why is predestination so important? Some people out there seem to be defending this idea like it makes a difference about what we should believe as Christians. Maybe a few of you should show the rest of us how if there is no predestination then . . . . . .? (Fill in the blank) For instance, doesn't missions lose a lot of its importance under predestination? If you've read "Eternity in Their Hearts", by whom I cannot remember (somebody who knows, please post the name), then you will have at least heard the argument for why it is a necessity that we do missions. People are dying out there without hearing God's Good News of Salvation. (Read this book if you haven't, it says a LOT of things I think Western/American Christians should hear!) > >That's where predestination comes in. By choosing the right set of >graces, God can infallibly send anyone to heaven. (That's Augustine's >primary contribution to the problem, if I understand correctly.) That's >what predestination is in Catholic theology: predestination to Heaven >(but not to Hell). > >What about those who end in Hell, you say? What about them? It isn't >fair! God could have chosen them too! > >Well, remember, men have the ability to resist grace. The fact that the >series of graces God gave to someone did not end in their salvation is >due to one thing and one thing only: their abuse of grace. It is thus >not God's fault, but the man's fault, that he is in Hell. God certainly >knew what would happen, but the fault lies in the man's evil will. [stuff deleted] > >Joe Beuhler Umm, Joe, you appear to have contradicted yourself again. "The fact that the series of graces God gave to someone did not end in their salvation is due to one thing and one thing only: their abuse of grace." VERSUS "Further, He knows EXACTLY which graces will cause any particular man to become a model of sanctity and virtue." Which is it? Is it our choice or His? Love in Christ, Charles K. Hurst(charles@rpi.edu) [The classic Lutheran position -- which to my great shock seems to be the one Joe is taking -- is that it is God's choice in the cases of those who are saved, but their own fault in the case of those who are damned. The claim is that when someone gives a gift, we credit him for the good done by his gift, but don't blame him for everything that happens because he didn't give the same gift to everybody. This distinction seemed artificial to Calvin. But there is a certain asymmetry built into the situation. The saved are saved because God's grace lives in them. The Holy Spirit is with them, and any goodness they show came from God originally. There is no negative equivalent of the Holy Spirit. Those who are damned are not showing some sort of badness from God. So even if you conclude with Calvin that God is ultimately responsible for deciding who is going to be damned, this responsibility is of a very different kind than his responsibility for those he chose. --clh]