pillera@etd4260a.erim.org (Joe Pillera) (12/06/90)
As a Christian, I've been following the events in the Middle East with
great interest. I'm curious as to what modern scholars believe are
the tell-tale signs of the Second Coming.
Specifically, I more interested in details (i.e. destruction of an
Israeli temple, etc.) as opposed to general signs (i.e. increase in
drug activity).
Any ideas?
Thanks in advance,
-Joe
--
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Joe Pillera ERIM
Research Scientist Image Processing Systems Division
pillera@etd4260a.erim.org P.O. Box 8618
(313) 994-1200 x2754 Ann Arbor, Michigan 48107-8618
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are solely those of Joe Pillera,
and not of ERIM or its affiliates.mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) (12/12/90)
In article <Dec.6.03.44.10.1990.23614@athos.rutgers.edu> pillera@etd4260a.erim.org (Joe Pillera) writes: >As a Christian, I've been following the events in the Middle East with >great interest. I'm curious as to what modern scholars believe are >the tell-tale signs of the Second Coming. > There are no such tell-tale signs. Christ specifically warns us not to look for signs. Rather we should live as if every day could be the last. Matthew Huntbach
marcc@ixhawk.att.com (Marc A Cartwright) (12/14/90)
In article <Dec.11.22.47.47.1990.28621@athos.rutgers.edu>, mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) writes: > In article <Dec.6.03.44.10.1990.23614@athos.rutgers.edu> pillera@etd4260a.erim.org (Joe Pillera) writes: > >As a Christian, I've been following the events in the Middle East with > >great interest. I'm curious as to what modern scholars believe are > >the tell-tale signs of the Second Coming. > > > There are no such tell-tale signs. Christ specifically warns us > not to look for signs. Rather we should live as if every day > could be the last. > Aren't you forgetting about what Jesus said in Mat 24:32 "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the door." This was said in response to the disciples question "what shall be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the world?" Marc C
kutz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Kenneth J. Kutz) (12/14/90)
In article <Dec.11.22.47.47.1990.28621@athos.rutgers.edu>, mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) writes: > In article <Dec.6.03.44.10.1990.23614@athos.rutgers.edu> pillera@etd4260a.erim.org (Joe Pillera) writes: > >As a Christian, I've been following the events in the Middle East with > >great interest. I'm curious as to what modern scholars believe are > >the tell-tale signs of the Second Coming. > There are no such tell-tale signs. Christ specifically warns us > not to look for signs. Rather we should live as if every day > could be the last. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees when they failed to recognize him: "Don't you know the signs of the times? When....then you know a storm is near..." What you are probably referring to is Jesus statement that says "No one knows the DAY or the HOUR". Notice he does tell us that it is possible to know the season: "Now learn a lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, YOU KNOW that it is near, right at the door." - Matt 24:32-33 Many have misinterpreted the signs. That does not invalidate Jesus' words. Why would Jesus give us signs of his 2nd coming (in Matt 24) and then specifically warn us NOT to look for them? Verses 32-33 is his exhortation for us to know the signs he has given us. Some sheep may ignore the Shepherd's warning. By God's grace I will not. > Matthew Huntbach -- Kenneth J. Kutz Internet kutz@andy.bgsu.edu Systems Programmer BITNET KUTZ@ANDY University Computer Services UUCP ...!osu-cis!bgsuvax!kutz Bowling Green State Univ. US Mail 238 Math Science, BG OH 43403
st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) (12/14/90)
Several Bible texts indicate landmarks of the end times:
Matthew 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the
sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars
will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Revelation 6:12,13
"And I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake;
and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon
became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth..."
(Both these refer back to Joel 3:15).
Note that the dark day of 1789 which was a visible phenomenon in most of the
Eastern United states, and was not associated with an eclipse. That evening
the moon appeared as blood. 1833 saw a dramatic meteor shower (Perseids,
I believe) which was one of the brightest ever recorded. I submit
that a good deal of the specific signs (in addition to the generic
signs of Daniel 12) have already been fulfilled and we are in the last times.
Steven Timm Physics Department Carnegie Mellon
"Shame on you, and shame on you again
for converting me into a bullet and
shooting me into men's hearts." Richard Harris c 1972billy@tcom.stc.co.uk (Billy Khan) (12/17/90)
In response to Matthew Huntbachs message :- I agree totally. Don't look for signs! It is not our business to know when the end of the world will be. Its could be tomorrow! As Matthew says...'live everydy as if it were the last.' (If only we did) In fact Jesus said,'Pray that the end times will be delayed, so that more people may be saved.' Drew.
fiddler@eng.sun.com (Steve Hix) (12/19/90)
In article <Dec.14.04.21.23.1990.28174@athos.rutgers.edu>, st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) writes: > Several Bible texts indicate landmarks of the end times: > > Note that the dark day of 1789 which was a visible phenomenon in most of the > Eastern United states, and was not associated with an eclipse. That evening > the moon appeared as blood. 1833 saw a dramatic meteor shower (Perseids, > I believe) which was one of the brightest ever recorded. I submit > that a good deal of the specific signs (in addition to the generic > signs of Daniel 12) have already been fulfilled and we are in the last times. I've been long familiar with both the 1833 meteor shower and the 1789 dark day (and personally attach roughly the same signifigance to the events as you do), but haven't seen a convincing description of the cause of the dark day so far. Do you have information about any objective event that might have caused it? (Reading newspaper and personal journal accounts of the event are pretty interesting.) -- ------------ The only drawback with morning is that it comes at such an inconvenient time of day. ------------
watson@uunet.uu.net (Steve Watson) (12/24/90)
Well, the signs of the Second Coming debate is heating up again. Once more, into the breach.... In <Dec.14.04.21.23.1990.28174@athos.rutgers.edu> Steven Timm writes: [Quotes of Matthew 24:29, Revelation 6:12,13 deleted. Look 'em up] >Note that the dark day of 1789 which was a visible phenomenon in most of the >Eastern United states, and was not associated with an eclipse. That evening >the moon appeared as blood. Q: Do you have a reference on this? Do you claim it to be a supernatural phenomenom or a natural one? >1833 saw a dramatic meteor shower (Perseids, >I believe) which was one of the brightest ever recorded. [deleted] >Steven Timm Physics Department Carnegie Mellon This sounds like a novel interpretation: in imaginative accounts of the Tribulation, I've seen these signs placed quite close to the End. This is the first time I've seen anyone connect them with events occurring 100's of years before the Parousia. In any case, I'm skeptical: meteor showers are common enough, including impacts of various sizes, and they've been happening since long before the time of Christ. To try and interpret the 1833 shower as a specific fulfillment of prophecy is stretching things more than a little, IMHO. Predictions of the Second Coming can take one of three forms: 1) A specific date. This has a pitiful history of failures (there was a well-publicized one in September 1988), and is arguably unScriptural ("you don't know the day or the hour"). (Actually I think the whole enterprise is unscriptural, which is the point of this posting.) 2) A deadline. Based, for e.g., on the belief that Christ will return within 'one generation' (40 years? 51? Pick a number?) of the founding of the State of Israel (1948) (this is one interpretation of the 'fig tree' passage in Matt 24, and I think may have contributed to the 1988 debacle). Trouble is, as your deadline approaches, this inevitably turns into a prediction of Type 1. If I predict that Jesus wil return before, say, A.D. 2000, then on December 31, 1999, I will get up saying "Today!", which is a Type 1 prediction. 3) A rather vague: "Soon!". But this is a prediction that doesn't actually predict anything. What is soon? One year? 10? 100? 1000? As C.S.Lewis said, "All times are soon to Aslan". So, except for the hysteria it creates, this is indistinguishable from refusing to make any prediction at all (which is the position Matthew Huntbach, myself, et al have taken). As an aside, I'd like to float a (probably controversial) interpretation of the 'wars & rumors of wars, famines, earthquakes' verse in Matt 24 (my Bible is elsewhere, I don't know the vs #). This is taken by many to mean that an increase in such calamities is a harbinger of the Second Coming (and they also frequently go on to assert that such an increase is detected). I suggest that it means precisely the opposite: in many cultures, wars and natural disasters have always been seen at the time as the End of the World. Christ, IMO, is saying: "No, that's not the End. That's *normal*. It's called 'living in a fallen world'. The real End, when I bring it, will be much different...like a thief in the night...". In any case, I fail to see why some Christians consider it so vitally important to predict Christ's coming: He told us it would be obvious when it happened. In the mean time, I don't see how it in any way changes God's call for me to live a holy life, and demonstrate his love in word and deed. As far as I can see, that's the only 'ready' I need to be. Is it going to be a great sin that I wasn't sitting up on my roof-top waiting for the sky to open? I could meet the Lord at any moment: I might be raptured, or I might drop dead of heart failure, or the building I work in might collapse: what difference does it make when, or how, it happens? Let me say again: MY DUTY IS CLEAR! I recommend C.S.Lewis' essay "The World's Last Night" (anthologized in _Fern_Seed_&_Elephants, among other places) for some typically clear Lewisian thinking on the subject. Read it over the holidays, then we can kick it around some more next year... Under The Mercy, -- +===========================================================================+ | Steve Watson Disclaimer: Blame me, not the Company I keep... | | UseNet: watson@Software.Mitel.COM UUCP: mitel!spock!watson@uunet.uu.net | +===========================================================================+