moorer@nyssa.cs.orst.edu (Rocky Moore) (12/19/90)
In article <Dec.16.19.05.37.1990.21412@athos.rutgers.edu> you write: > > Its very simple. > > In john it is written > > '...For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, > so that WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM, shall not perish, > but have eternal life....' > > I believe very strongly that once you are saved you are SAVED! > doesn't Jesus promise to walk the whole way with you? 'Though >I walk through the valley of death...' He'll never dessert you and no >Christian..no matter how much they have slid backwards and forwards >with ever wish to be without Christ. > Do you ever read the Old Testament Or do you you only need the New Testament? If you just remember that most of the writing at that time ASSUMED you had a knowledge of the Old Testament then you would make some scripture a bit clearer. In the Old testament we find several places where the Lord said "Forever" or "If You Just" but they had implied rules to them (mostly Obey & Love the Lord your God). As an example what about King David. The covenant the Lord made with him was broken when he disobeyed the Lord (the Lord still kept part of it even though he was no longer bound to it because David's disobediance). There are many such occurances in the Old Testament, but you say that was then and not for us?? What about: John 5:29 ... they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Gal 5:18-21 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are: Adultery, fornication uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry ...... they which do these things SHALL NOT inherit the kingdom of God. Gal 6:2 ... fulfil the LAW of Christ. Gal 6:7-8 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for what a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. I do not beleive that the 10:26 is referring that we will be damned for those intentional sins but I feel we will have to be judged for them by Christ for them (quite a few people do not agree with my feelings about this verse so do not feel alone). How about direct verses: Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. 1Jo 2:3-4 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments He that saith, I lnow him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a LIAR, and the TRUTH is not in him. Rev 2:10 ... be thou faithful onto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue the out of my mouth. I have heard people say will those scriptures just pertain to people who have never been saved in the first place. You could bend it that way on some of them but that last on is a little hard to swallow if you try to bend it. A substance must be in the body before it can be vomitted up! This is just a small sample list of many scriputre (in old and new testaments) which can be used to deny the "Once Saved" theology. It only matter how far you open your eyes... Rocky Moore moorer@jacobs.orst.edu
billy@tcom.stc.co.uk (Billy Khan) (12/24/90)
I don't disagree with the scriptures, but I disagree with your interpretation. The lord the gave me these few words from Ephesians which mean much more to me. '..For he chose us to be blameless in his sight before the creation of the world...' If he chose us before the world was made and brought us to a point where we put our trust in him, and then let us go again he would be contradicting himself. I don't believe he does that. We are saved by a gift of grace, not by good works. Good works merely follow as we grow in the spirit. Drew.
kutz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Kenneth J. Kutz) (12/25/90)
In article <Dec.19.04.53.54.1990.28642@athos.rutgers.edu>, moorer@nyssa.cs.orst.edu (Rocky Moore) writes: Rocky Moore supports the theory that a person can be un-born again and sites the following passages: > John 5:29 ... THEY that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and > THEY that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. > Gal 5:18-21 > But if YE be led of the Spirit, YE are not under the law. Now the > works of the flesh are manifest, which are: Adultery, fornication > uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry ...... THEY which do these > things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. > Gal 6:7-8 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for what A MAN soweth, that shall HE also reap. For HE that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh > reap corruption; but HE that soweth to the Spirit shall of the > Spirit reap life everlasting. > Rev 3:5 HE that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; > and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but > will confess HIS name before my Father, and before his angels. (I have capitalized the subjects in the above passages to emphasize my point below) All four of these passages say essentially the same thing. Habitual sinners will not be (and are not) saved. What these passages do NOT say is that an obedient life is a PREREQUISITE to salvation. What they do describe is the fruits of the Spirit (against which there is no law). Notice with each one of these passages (and every similar one in the Bible) the subject in view is NOT salvation, it is the PERSON. The adjectives and verbs are in every case used to describe the saved person's life, NOT things REQUIRED before salvation will be granted. > How about direct verses: > Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without > works is dead also. Does the above sentence say "Faith + works are PREREQUSITES for salvation"? or does it say "Saving faith produces good works". The distinction is important. I submit you are stretching the text to conclude #1 when all the words really say is #2. > 1Jo 2:3-4 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments > He that saith, I lnow him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a > LIAR, and the TRUTH is not in him. No where else is what I am trying to say more clear than here! A person that ALREADY knows him (i.e. has passed from death to life) keeps his commandments because of the new nature given at salvation. Commandment keeping (to repeat) is a QUALITY of someone that is saved, not a prerequisite for salvation. Please, the subject of the above sentence is a human being and the FRUIT of his or her life. > Rev 2:10 ... be thou faithful onto death, and I will give thee a crown of > life. The context here is referring to suffering Christians who receive a CROWN of life. Must this equal eternal life? It need not. The CROWN of life can be just that - a crown that we lay at is feet as in REVELATION 4:10. Certainly we don't lay eternal life at his feet two chapters later! Secondly you are implying that if one loses faith he loses eternal life. This denies the truth of 2 Timothy 2:12: "If we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself." Once you are a part of the body of Christ, you cannot and will not be dismembered. Which lead us to our conclusion... > Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I > will spue the out of my mouth. > I have heard people say will those scriptures just pertain to people who > have never been saved in the first place. You could bend it that way on > some of them but that last on is a little hard to swallow if you try to > bend it. A substance must be in the body before it can be vomitted up! Does "spew" = "vomit"? NO! Have you ever picked up a glass sitting on counter thinking it was a very cold glass of water for your parched mouth? You then go to take a big drink but to your dismay it is lukewarm. So what do you do? You run to the sink and vomit? No! You run to the sink and spew (or spit as the NIV translates it) it out of your mouth. The picture here is not vomiting up something IN the body but spitting out something as a result of testing. You do not need to swallow something in order to determine whether or not it is lukewarm! > This is just a small sample list of many scriputre (in old and new testaments) > which can be used to deny the "Once Saved" theology. It only matter how far > you open your eyes... People have been USING Scripture to deny lots of things. Some use Scripture to deny the deity of Christ. Some USE Scripture to deny the virgin birth. You use Scripture to deny the eternal security of the believer. The question that must humbly be in our minds at all times while we are trying to discern truth from God's Word is: *** What does the text SAY? *** -- Kenneth J. Kutz Internet kutz@andy.bgsu.edu Systems Programmer BITNET KUTZ@ANDY University Computer Services UUCP ...!osu-cis!bgsuvax!kutz Bowling Green State Univ. US Mail 238 Math Science, BG OH 43403