[soc.religion.christian] Prayer and Paradoxes

lums@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu (Andy Lumsdaine) (12/19/90)

I'd like to throw out a couple of questions I've been chewing on
lately and see if someone can help me resolve them.

1)  What is the actual mechanism by which God hears our prayers?
Certainly, it's not acoustic, since one can pray silently.  Does He
pick up the electrochemical patterns in our brains that are composing
our thoughts?  Is it something deeper, something in our souls, that He
picks up?  If it is something deeper, what is it?

2)  Does God answer our prayers before we pray them?  Of course, He is
outside of time, and can easily do so.  However, and here is where the
paradox comes in, if He answers the prayer beforehand, wouldn't the
circumstances leading up to the prayer be changed, so that the prayer
might not be prayed?  I ask this because of an experience I had a few
years ago.  I had gotten away from my Christian walk and had gotten
myself into a real mess in my personal life.  In my despair, I prayed
for deliverance -- I felt God's presence during that prayer more
clearly than ever before or since.  My prayers were answered in
startling fashion and in short order.  However, as I've been
reflecting over this experience, it seems that God was working in my
life well before then to answer that prayer, and even more remarkably,
to bring me to the place where I could pray that prayer in first
place.

I don't expect any quick or easy answers to any of this.  But, I would
like to discuss some of these issues with other Christians so that, in
any case, my understanding and appreciation of God can increase.

Regards,
Andrew


  Andrew Lumsdaine               "We don't understand the software, and 
  lums@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu       sometimes we don't understand the hardware, 
  MIT RLE                         but we can *see* the blinking lights!"

uriel@oak.circa.ufl.edu (Scott Whitmore) (12/24/90)

In article <Dec.19.04.52.34.1990.28610@athos.rutgers.edu>, lums@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu (Andy Lumsdaine) writes:
>1)  What is the actual mechanism by which God hears our prayers?
>Certainly, it's not acoustic, since one can pray silently.  Does He
>pick up the electrochemical patterns in our brains that are composing
>our thoughts?  Is it something deeper, something in our souls, that He
>picks up?  If it is something deeper, what is it?

While if it were somehow necessary for Him to use physical sensors to
pick up the contents of our prayers, I'm sure He would, somehow I doubt
that it's that way.  What is the "actual mechanism" by which souls and
bodies interact?  What is the "actual mechanism" by which thoughts or dreams
or prayers are created in the first place?  I certainly don't know, and
though Theosophists may be able to answer that question with a great deal
more confidence than they should, I certainly can't.

>2)  Does God answer our prayers before we pray them?  Of course, He is
>outside of time, and can easily do so.  However, and here is where the
>paradox comes in, if He answers the prayer beforehand, wouldn't the
>circumstances leading up to the prayer be changed, so that the prayer
>might not be prayed?  I ask this because of an experience I had a few
>years ago.  I had gotten away from my Christian walk and had gotten
>myself into a real mess in my personal life.  In my despair, I prayed
>for deliverance -- I felt God's presence during that prayer more
>clearly than ever before or since.  My prayers were answered in
>startling fashion and in short order.  However, as I've been
>reflecting over this experience, it seems that God was working in my
>life well before then to answer that prayer, and even more remarkably,
>to bring me to the place where I could pray that prayer in first
>place.
>

I think you answered your own question, here.  If your intention at Time
X was to pray for Y, then at Time X-1 God will know this, and can (if it
would be fitting) "set you up" for it "in advance."  If your intention at
Time X was NOT to pray, then at Time X-1 God knows this as well and will
accordingly NOT set you up.  But God isn't going to change your mind for
you in any event, even though it may SEEM like it to you.

>I don't expect any quick or easy answers to any of this.  But, I would
>like to discuss some of these issues with other Christians so that, in
>any case, my understanding and appreciation of God can increase.

Would that I understood it all better myself... but the duty of a Christian
is not merely to understand, but to follow Him in heart, word and deed...

>Regards,
>Andrew
>  Andrew Lumsdaine               "We don't understand the software, and 
>  lums@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu       sometimes we don't understand the hardware, 
>  MIT RLE                         but we can *see* the blinking lights!"


Scott

--
Scott Whitmore         Internet: uriel@maple.circa.ufl.edu
24-510 Tolbert Hall	      or uriel@maple.decnet%pine.circa.ufl.edu
Gainesville, FL  32612 (USA)     Friendly Neighborhood Standard Disclaimer
"The Devil...the prowde spirit...cannot bear to be mocked." --Thomas More (?)

psb@eesun1.eece.ksu.edu (Phil Buckland) (12/24/90)

[Andy Lumsdaine asked several questions about prayer, including
1)  What is the actual mechanism by which God hears our prayers?

	The NT is clear in making the Holy Spirit (who indwells all
	Christians) the agency by which this occurs (since He intercedes
	for us with groanings too deep for words).  Whether such a
	spiritual conduit is bound to physical means is unknown to
	me, but I would suspect that such means are not necessary.

>2)  Does God answer our prayers before we pray them?

	God 'uses' the righteous and the unrighteous to accomplish
	His purposes.  His prime purpose involves the desire to see *all*
	saved (including me and you :-).  That such an insight as you
	have here is startling is understandable, but it is more due to
	its unexpectedness than its reality.

>I don't expect any quick or easy answers to any of this.  But, I would
>like to discuss some of these issues with other Christians so that, in
>any case, my understanding and appreciation of God can increase.

	This reply may not be any more illuminating.  As one standing
	outside your experience, I don't find what you relate to be
	surprising, but were I to experience it myself, I probably would
	be surprised.

>Regards,
>Andrew


We read the world wrong		| Phil Buckland
and say that it deceives us.	| psb@eece.ksu.edu
Tagore, from Stray Birds	|

CONS.ELF@AIDA.CSD.UU.SE (Ake Eldberg) (12/25/90)

It is my understanding that prayers are not simply messages
that pass between us and God, like letters or telegrams. Prayer
is an integral part of a Christian life, of faith itself. When
someone believes in God, he talks to God, communicates and
seeks the presence of God. This can be done in many ways.
I can say a prayer out loud or pray silently in my heart.
I can do it alone in my room or together with others in church.
I can meet God in the sacraments. It's all a matter of living
with God.
He is always there. It may happen that I leave Him for a time,
forget Him and turn away -- but He does not go away from me.
He knows what is in my heart, and will seek to draw me back,
He will call me and provide opportunities for me to come back.
 
I'm trying to say that I find questions like "does God hear
a prayer before it is said" or "does God control what I pray?"
are missing the point. Prayer is not just those messages we
form with our conscios minds or our mouths. Faith and prayer
are part of a community with God in which I stand, being His
child and baptized to Him. It is a oneness where the mechanisms
of communication are something I don't need to worry about. All
I have to do is strive to love God.

The best book on prayer I have ever read is Sheila Cassidy's
"Prayer for pilgrims". I recommend it with all my heart.

Ake Eldberg

oracle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Brian T. Coughlin) (01/07/91)

Re: Andy Lumsdaine


In article <Dec.19.04.52.34.1990.28610@athos.rutgers.edu>
 lums@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu (Andy Lumsdaine) writes:

>1)  What is the actual mechanism by which God hears our prayers?
>Certainly, it's not acoustic, since one can pray silently.  Does He
>pick up the electrochemical patterns in our brains that are composing
>our thoughts?  Is it something deeper, something in our souls, that He
>picks up?  If it is something deeper, what is it?

  Hi, Andy!

   My honest answer is, I haven't the foggiest *idea* of the mechanism
 (if indeed the term is applicable) through which God perceives prayerful
 intentions. :)  But I *can* share my own feelings on the subject:

   I strongly doubt that God would depend upon any physical (as we
 understand physics) apparatus for perception of prayerful intentions.
 For example, if there is indeed life after death, then would that not
 imply that there is THOUGHT without the presence of an active physical
 brain? If both of the above are indeed true, then God would be unable
 to perceive the prayers of deceased humans if His only prayer-perception
 apparatus were perceptions of the electrochemical workings of the brain.
 I've always been of the philosophy that God is really and truly
 all-encompassing... that God permeates every aspect of existence (and then
 some!  :)  ). Given this, God would automatically be "in tune" with ALL
 goings-on in the physical cosmos, prayer or non-prayer.


>2)  Does God answer our prayers before we pray them?  Of course, He is
>outside of time, and can easily do so.  However, and here is where the
>paradox comes in, if He answers the prayer beforehand, wouldn't the
>circumstances leading up to the prayer be changed, so that the prayer
>might not be prayed?

  I honestly don't know. :(  I'd guess that God is not "hard-wired" into
 using only one chronological scheme when answering prayers; some He may
 wish to 'delay' in answering for His own reasons (i.e. His response might
 well be as rapid to the prayer, but the natural manifestation of that
 response might well take time). I find it quite conceivable that, if the
 best way to answer a prayer of a particular believer would be to start
 the response in motion before the actual prayer, God could indeed do so.
 In cases where God did not wish to violate natural law (which, I believe,
 He is quite loath to do), an immediate response to a prayer might well
 require pre-acting conditions (e.g. a response to a prayer taking 3 hours
 to manifest, but God wishing the response to be immediate in relation
 to the pray-er's petition... God could easily set the process in motion
 about 3 hours before the prayer would be made).


  On the less philosophical side, I believe that God's answers to prayer
 are as intricate and subtle as they are fulfilling; sometimes, all that
 is needed is for the praying person to realize that the answer to the
 prayer had been sitting in front of his/her nose all the time; God needn't
 shatter mountains to grant our requests... He might well just give
 us a mental "nudge" in the right direction when we need it.

----
   Take care!

   Sincerely,     Brian Coughlin
                  oracle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu