[soc.religion.christian] Millenium?

wagner@karazm.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) (12/04/90)

Robert Johnson writes:
>  
>The Kingdom is the 1000 year reign of Christ on this earth
>immediately after the end of the current age (age of the Gentiles).  The age
>of the Gentiles will last approximately 2000 years and is about over.  Then
>their is the millemium, or 1000 year reign of Christ called the Kingdom in
>the Bible.  The kingdom should not be confused with heaven.

  In this article I attempt to show why Millenialism is unscriptural.  I do
this from the point of view that all of scripture is inspired of God and
useful for instruction. In particular, the message of Revelation can be of
great spiritual benefit to the reader, provided it is read with
understanding.

  My chief reference, other than the Bible, is Siegbert Becker's excellent
commentary on Revelation, "Revelation: The Distant Triumph Song" published
by Northwestern Publishing House.  I might add that this book is a great
bargain at $16.95.

  It is important that we understand what Scripture truly teaches on this
matter, because Millenialism is enveloped in a thick spiritual darkness and
a great deal of superstition.  Some people are led to strange ideas
concerning various modern political entities, particularly the county of
Israel, as if that still has a special role to play in God's plan for the
world.  Further every major threat of war seems to inspire thoughts of
Armageddon, as if that were a physical, and not a spiritual battle.    But
Christ warned us that wars and rumors of wars must happen, and that we
should not be alarmed by them.

Various millenialists, predicted the millenium to arrive in 1466, 1775,1776,
1810,1836,1847, 1848, 1879, 1880, 1887, and 1914.  Many of the people who 
had been deceived by these false prophets were disillusioned when the 
promised event did not occur. In some cases, the false prophet was able
to hang on to at least a portion of his following by re-interpreting
the event.  I think this applies in particular to the Adventists (William
Miller) and the Jehovah's Witnesses (Charles Taze Russell).

See Deut. 18:22, concerning false prophets.
 
  The roots of Millenialism are found in Jewish misinterpretations of the
Messianic prophecies.  In some prophecies, the Messiah was portrayed as a
conquering king, a glorious ruler, whose kingdom would last forever.  In
others, He was portrayed as a humble, suffering servant, who would be
wounded, spit upon, and rejected by men.  This contrast was so sharp that
some Jews thought there would be two Messiahs, one a political ruler, and
the other a priest from the tribe of Levi who would suffer.  This in spite
of Zechariah's prophecy, "He shall be a priest upon his throne," which
showed the Messiah to be both priest and king.

  Other Jews, perhaps most of them, and certainly most that live today, 
ignored the prophecies of the suffering Messiah (Isaiah 53 in particular)
and focused on the prophecies concerning the Messiah as king.  Even today
we can see how some Christians think they can advance the kingdom of God
through political means.

  That this view was prevalent in Jesus' day is evident in the way his
disciples misunderstood him.  When Jesus said he would go to Jerusalem and
be killed, Peter responded "Never, Lord!"  Even on the day of his
ascenscion they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the
kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6)

In a sense, they asked the right question for the wrong reason.  The
Kingdom of God was about to begin, as Christ ascended bodily into heaven,
to sit down at the right hand of the Father.  He has reigned over this
kingdom, sometimes called Israel, but more usually known as the Christian
Church, ever since.  In this sense the kingdom belongs to Israel.  However,
it is clear that the disciples were not thinking along those lines.

I have to presume that Christian millenialists find their key passage in 
Revelation 20.  This speaks of an angel from heaven binding Satan with
a great chain for a thousand years, that he may no longer deceive the
Gentiles, but after the thousand years he must be released for a short time.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given to
them, and [I saw] the souls of those who were beheaded because of their
witness about Jesus and because of the Word of God, namely, those who did
not worship the beast and his image and did not receive his mark on their
forehead and on their hand; and they lived and reigned with Christ a
thousand years.  The rest of the dead did not live until the thousand years
come to an end.  This is the first resurrection"

This is the only scripture passage that speaks of a thousand year reign.
The central topic here is the souls of the martyrs.  They have life and
they reign with Christ a thousand years.  It does not speak of an earthly
kingdom; indeed, Christ said "My kingdom is not of this world."
Particularly since it speaks of souls we can safely say that this is about
the souls of the departed martyrs living and reigning with Christ in
heaven.  The only difficulty is the 'thousand years' and the binding of
Satan.

First of all, it does not say that Christ's reign is limited to a 
thousand years.  Elsewhere (Rev.11:15) it is written that 'he will
reign forever and forever'.  Rather this passage says that the souls
of the martyrs lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.  If I
say that my brother Tom is coming to live with me for 2 months, that
does not mean that I will live for only 2 months.

What does it mean to have life, or to live?  In John 5:24 we read, 

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me
*has* eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from 
death to life.  I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come
when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear
will live."

It is interesting to compare this to Rev. 20:6:

"Blessed and holy is he that has a part in the first resurrection.  Over
them the second death has no power, but they will continue to be priests 
of God and of Christ, and they will rule with him for the thousand years."

In these and many places conversion is spoken of as a resurrection.  In
Ephesians 2, the unbeliever is described as dead in his transgressions and
sins, but the believe is made alive in Christ.  Colossians 2:12 speaks
of our *having been*  buried with Christ in baptism and raised with 
him through faith.  John 3:3-8 speaks of conversion as being 'born again'.

In John 10:10 Jesus said "I have come that they may have life, and have
it to the full", and in John 6:63, "The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts
for nothing.  The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are
life."  To have real life means to have a connection to God, to have
the 'right relationship'.  God is the source of life, apart from him 
we are dead.  The unbeliever may seem to have life, but he only has a fleshly
existence; he is spiritually dead.  

We receive eternal life when we believe in Christ; he has already purchased
it for us (redemption) and offers it to us freely through the preaching of
the gospel.  When our bodies die, we continue to live; our souls don't die
but live in heaven with Christ.  This is the full meaning of Christ's
words, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that
whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

It is also interesting to note that the souls of the martyrs are called
priests, just as the living believer is called a priest by Peter.
(1 Peter 2:5,9).

So we understand the 'first resurrection' to be conversion.  The 'second
death', judgement and punishment of unbelievers (v. 14), has no power over 
the believers.

The unbelievers however, have never had life.  Their souls continue
to exist, even after they die, but they neither live nor reign with 
Christ. 

The 'second resurrection' is not named explicitly but is called so in
contrast to the first one.  It is described in Rev. 20:11-15.  It is a
resurrection of believers and unbelievers, not just of souls, but the
souls are miraculously reunited with the bodies.  That the believers
are present is apparent from the fact that the Book of Life is opened.
 
So what are the 'thousand years'?  The word 'thousand years' occurs 
in only two other places in Scripture, and then only to show God's
timelessness.  So we are left with the Scriptures before us, Rev. 20.
We conclude that the 'thousand years' must refer to the time between
conversion and Christ's return for judgement.  Or we might say that
it refers to the time from Christ's ascencsion to his return.  In this
sense 'a thousand years' denotes a 'complete' period of time.  So the
message of the living and reigning of the martyrs with Christ is that:

1.  They live!  They are not dead, but they live with Christ, and we will
    see them again at the resurrection.

2.  They reign!  They reign with Christ, who is king over the whole 
    creation.  Perhaps after the resurrection and judgement, they
    won't need to reign anymore?  After all, we won't need the sun
    and moon either! (Rev. 21:23)  At any rate the problem of 'why
    don't they keep reigning with Christ after the thousand years'
    is the same whether you reject or accept the Millenium.

This leaves us with the 'binding of Satan'.  If the thousand years is
now, then in what sense is Satan bound?  First let us understand the
purpose of the binding 'that he might no longer deceive the Gentiles
(nations) until the thousand years are come to an end.'  Since the 
creation and fall, and then since Noah, the people of the world started
with the revealed knowledge of God, and in particular the promise of
the Savior, Gen 3:15.  However they all lost this knowledge, presumably
through Satan's deception.  Only through Israel, the descendents of
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, did this knowledge persist -- and even then
it was sadly neglected.  

  But with the coming of Christ, who 'went out conquering and to conquer',
(Rev. 6:2) the trend was reversed. The Gentiles received the Gospel of
salvation, many with joy.  Christ said that the Gospel was to be 'preached
in the whole world as a testimony to all nations' (Matt 24:14) 'and then
the end will come' (Note: he doesn't say that a Millenium will come, but
'the end').  When we believe the Gospel, we are freed of Satan's yoke of
slavery, and we are no longer decieved.  True,
 
	"This world's prince may still,
	Scowl fierce as he will,"
but,
	"He can harm us none,
	He's judged, the deed is done,
	One little word can fell him."
	-- Martin Luther, 'A Mighty Fortress is Our God', v. 3

Satan is bound in the sense that his power is limited.  His power of
deception is limited so that people can believe the Gospel.  He will be
loosed when the Gospel is no longer preached (a very disturbing thought
indeed).  Indeed he is free now to deceive men when the Gospel is not
preached or is distorted by false teachers.  This final loosing might be
the same as the death of the two witnesses, word and sacrament,
Rev. 11:1-10.  

In Rev. 20:7-10 it appears that the enemies of Christ, 'Gog and Magog'
gather from the four corners of the earth to do battle against the church
('the camp of the saints and the beloved city'). This battle is undoubtedly
the same as the 'battle of Armageddon', Rev. 16:12-16, Rev. 19:11-21.
These are all visions of a final persecution of the christian church.  The 
message of comfort is that Christ will be victorious in the end.

  'Armageddon' is a transliteration to Greek of the Hebrew 'Har Megiddo'
mountain of or near Megiddo.  The most prominent mountain near Megiddo is
Mount Carmel, where Elijah did battle with the priests of Baal.  This was not
a physical battle so much as a spiritual battle for the hearts of the people.
God showed himself to be the true God when he sent 'fire from heaven' to
consume Elijah's sacrifice.  Similarly in Rev. 20:9 we read of Christ's
enemies that 'fire came down from heaven and devoured them'  -- a slight
departure from Elijah's battle, since the fire consumes the enemies rather
than the sacrifice, but the symbolic parellellism seems intended.  To say
that Armageddon depicts a physical battle between human armies, has no basis
in Scripture.  No actual fighting is depicted in any of these passages. They
just say that God wins, and rather suddenly at that. 

David H. Wagner
a confessional Lutheran.
				"The day is surely drawing near
				When God's Son the Annointed,
				Shall with great majesty appear
				As Judge of all appointed.
				All mirth and laughter then shall cease
				When flames on flames will still increase,
				As Scripture truly teacheth.
				
				"A trumpet loud shall then resound
				And all the earth be shaken.
				Then all who in their graves are found
				Shall from their sleep awaken;
				But all that live shall in that hour
				By the Almighty's boundless pow'r
				Be changed at His commanding.
				
				"A book is opened then to all,
				A record truly telling
				What each hath done, both great and small,
				When he on earth was dwelling;
				And ev'ry heart be clearly seen,
				And all be known as they have been
				In tho'ts and words and actions.
				
				"Then woe to those who scorned the Lord
				And sought but carnal pleasures,
				Who here despised His precious Word
				And loved their earthly treasures!
				With shame and trembling they will stand
				And at the Judge's stern command
				To Satan be delivered.
				
				"O Jesus, who my debt didst pay
				And for my sin wast smitten,
				Within the Book of Life, oh, may
				My name be also written!
				I will not doubt; I trust in Thee,
				From Satan Thou hast made me free
				And from all condemnation."
				--"Es ist gewisslich an der Zeit" v. 1-5
				--Bartholomaeus Ringwaldt, 1586
				--from "The Lutheran Hymnal", #611

My opinions and beliefs on this matter are disclaimed by
The University of Houston.

fiddler@eng.sun.com (Steve Hix) (12/14/90)

In article <Dec.4.01.10.12.1990.950@athos.rutgers.edu>, wagner@karazm.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) writes:
> Robert Johnson writes:
> >The Kingdom is the 1000 year reign of Christ on this earth
> >immediately after the end of the current age (age of the Gentiles).  The age
> 
>   In this article I attempt to show why Millenialism is unscriptural.  I do

OK

> Various millenialists, predicted the millenium to arrive in 1466, 1775,1776,
> 1810,1836,1847, 1848, 1879, 1880, 1887, and 1914.  

You missed a big one in 1844.  Two, in fact.

> Many of the people who 
> had been deceived by these false prophets were disillusioned when the 
> promised event did not occur. In some cases, the false prophet was able
> to hang on to at least a portion of his following by re-interpreting
> the event.  I think this applies in particular to the Adventists (William
> Miller) and the Jehovah's Witnesses (Charles Taze Russell).

Don't know about Russell, but I don't believe that Miller ever claimed
to be a prophet.  Went out of his way to disclaim such, actually.

After the 1844 events, was quite clear on the point that he had been
mistaken in his (and other supporters) interpretation of the applicable
parts of Daniel's prophecies.  (Also did not accept the doctrine of
Millenialism.)  Don't believe that the majority of Adventists today
accept Millenialism...'cause is ain't scriptural.

Reamainder of your article quite interesting.

--
------------
  The only drawback with morning is that it comes 
    at such an inconvenient time of day.
------------

st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) (12/17/90)

Steve Hix writes
>Don't know about Russell, but I don't believe that Miller ever claimed
>to be a prophet.  Went out of his way to disclaim such, actually.

 Quite correct.  

>After the 1844 events, was quite clear on the point that he had been
>mistaken in his (and other supporters) interpretation of the applicable
>parts of Daniel's prophecies.  (Also did not accept the doctrine of
>Millenialism.)  Don't believe that the majority of Adventists today
>accept Millenialism...'cause is ain't scriptural.

Miller believed that the sanctuary to be cleansed in Daniel 8:14 was the 
earth, and this meant the second coming of Christ.  Both the small Advent
Christian Church (direct line from leaders of Millerite movement) and 
the then-offshoot but now much larger Seventh-day Adventists believe that
Christ's coming will be at a time which is soon but unspecified, and that 
we should live each day in readiness for that time.

I don't know what Mr. Hix means by the doctrine of Millenialism. 
Millenialism falls into two classic streams--postmillenialism which 
teaches Christ will return after 1000 years of peace on the earth, and 
premillenialists who teach that Christ's return precedes the 1000 years 
of peace.

Seventh-day Adventists believe that living and reigning with Christ
a thousand years will be in heaven, after which Christ will return with
his saints to the earth and create "new heavens and a new earth."
Thus we attach no particular political significance to the millenium, nor
do we attach any religious significance to the current turmoil in the 
Middle East.

Further questions on this topic about particular Adventist beliefs may 
be directed to SDAnet, the Adventist mailing list, at st0o+SDA@andrew.cmu.edu


Steven Timm  Physics Department  Carnegie Mellon
"Shame on you, and shame on you again
    for converting me into a bullet and
         shooting me into men's hearts."    Richard Harris  c 1972

math1h3@jetson.uh.edu (12/19/90)

In article <Dec.16.19.45.40.1990.21698@athos.rutgers.edu>, st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm) writes:
> 
> I don't know what Mr. Hix means by the doctrine of Millenialism. 
> Millenialism falls into two classic streams--postmillenialism which 
> teaches Christ will return after 1000 years of peace on the earth, and 
> premillenialists who teach that Christ's return precedes the 1000 years 
> of peace.
> 
> Seventh-day Adventists believe that living and reigning with Christ
> a thousand years will be in heaven, after which Christ will return with
> his saints to the earth and create "new heavens and a new earth."
> Thus we attach no particular political significance to the millenium, nor
> do we attach any religious significance to the current turmoil in the 
> Middle East.

I can understand how you might say this is not millenialism, because the
living and reigning is in heaven and not on the earth.  However from my
point of view it is a kind of millenialism, because it puts a millenium
where (IMHO) it does not belong.  When Christ returns, he will judge the
world, and his believers will inherit the kingdom, i.e., the new
heavens and the earth.

It may be, however, that what the Seventh-day Adventists believe on
this matter is less harmful (IMHO) than some of the other theories
that have been put forward.  When I read the book, 'America in Prophecy'
it appeared that Miller really tried to be responsible in his interpretation
with Scripture.  

I think the main difference that I have with the Adventists,
(and this may be the seventh-day variety) has to do with the observance
of the law.  The book cited above makes the claim that the church moved
the Sabbath day from  Saturday to Sunday, contrary to God's express 
command.  What I believe is that we observe no Sabbath at all, for the 
Sabbath is part of the old covenant.  Paul told us in no uncertain terms
not to put ourselves under that covenant --see Galatians.  To make it
clear that we are not observing the old Sabbath, we in Christian freedom
meet for worship on Sunday --and on other days as well.  The Adventists
(at least according to the book 'America in Prophecy', believe that by
restoring the Sabbath to Saturday, they show their freedom from the 
papal antichrist.  As a Lutheran I have to applaud their motive, but
to put yourself under the Law (or to appear to do so) is moving in the wrong 
direction. (IMHO) But perhaps we can discuss that some other time.

David H. Wagner
a confessional Lutheran.

My opinions and beliefs on this matter are disclaimed by
The University of Houston.

jclark%sdcc6@ucsd.edu (John Clark) (01/03/91)

In article <Dec.19.04.40.15.1990.28387@athos.rutgers.edu> math1h3@jetson.uh.edu writes:
.....
+(and this may be the seventh-day variety) has to do with the observance
+of the law.  The book cited above makes the claim that the church moved
+the Sabbath day from  Saturday to Sunday, contrary to God's express 
+command.  What I believe is that we observe no Sabbath at all, for the 

This 'observance' of the law comes under the commmand of '..if you
love me, you will keep my commandments..." Of course the next
question is "Which commandments?". Since there are many commandments
in the bible it would seem that one could pick an choose which ones.

>Sabbath is part of the old covenant.  Paul told us in no uncertain terms

Well is it? Is 'thou shall not commit adultery' part of the old
covanent? Well, that seems to very well supported in all accepted
Christian varients. Of course some activities are reiterated as
being 'sinful' in the New Testement. However by their absence are
other laws which are not specifically related to temple worship 'old
covanent' and hence not applicable?
-- 

John Clark
jclark@ucsd.edu

[Those who accept only some of the Law generally make distinctions
between a permanent "moral" Law and specific signs and ceremonies
intended to be part of the covenant with the Jews.  Generally they
would consider adultery to be part of the moral Law, and so still
accept that commandment.  This is obviously a subjective distinction,
but surely you can see that worshipping on a particular day seems
rather more like having specific festivals such as Passover and
Booths, rather than as a basic moral principle?  Since it's hard to be
clear about the exact dividing line between "moral" and "ceremonial"
law, it seems appropriate to cite Paul's advice in Rom 14:4 that those
who regard one day as special and those who do not should respect each
other's choices.  --clh]

fiddler@eng.sun.com (Steve Hix) (01/07/91)

In article <Jan.3.04.22.02.1991.14483@athos.rutgers.edu>, jclark%sdcc6@ucsd.edu (John Clark) writes:
> In article <Dec.19.04.40.15.1990.28387@athos.rutgers.edu> math1h3@jetson.uh.edu writes:
> >Sabbath is part of the old covenant.  Paul told us in no uncertain terms
> 
> Well is it? Is 'thou shall not commit adultery' part of the old
> covanent? Well, that seems to very well supported in all accepted
> Christian varients. 
> 
> [Those who accept only some of the Law generally make distinctions
> between a permanent "moral" Law and specific signs and ceremonies
> intended to be part of the covenant with the Jews.  Generally they
> would consider adultery to be part of the moral Law, and so still
> accept that commandment.  This is obviously a subjective distinction,
> but surely you can see that worshipping on a particular day seems
> rather more like having specific festivals such as Passover and
> Booths, rather than as a basic moral principle?  

I can see how someone could take that line of reasoning.

On the other hand, splitting up the ten commandments in such a (arbitrary?
convenient?) fashion might be a case of needlessly increasing complexity.
(Ol' Bill of Ockham would frown, perhaps...)

For example, the dietary laws in Leviticus fit together as a package.  The
civil codes fit together as a package.  The ceremonial laws fit together as
another package...so why split up the ten commandments?

Maybe their description solely as "moral" is more restrictive (by current
English usage) than needful.  Would they be better looked on as a description
of our ideal (minimum) relationship with God and other people?  The "relational"
laws?

We show proper repect and honor each other by either doing some things (honoring
our parents, etc.) or not doing others (avoiding murder, adultery, lying, etc.)
We also show proper respect and honor God by avoiding some things (using his name 
in vain, worshipping other entities), and by doing some other things (Sabbath
observance as a means of acknowledging his Creatorship of all things, etc.)

Not to try to stir up message traffic, btw, just to point out another approach
to the topic.  :}

> Since it's hard to be
> clear about the exact dividing line between "moral" and "ceremonial"
> law, it seems appropriate to cite Paul's advice in Rom 14:4 that those
> who regard one day as special and those who do not should respect each
> other's choices.  --clh]

No problem there...

--
------------
  The only drawback with morning is that it comes 
    at such an inconvenient time of day.
------------