wrgo@phoenix.princeton.edu (Wesley Rex Go) (08/17/89)
I have a friend who is a newcomer to the philosophies of
Catholicism. He is questioning the belief in living for
the moment as opposed to the past or the future. I, on
the other hand, believe that there should be adequate
planning for the near and distant future. For example,
from a conservationist viewpoint, I think people should
not "live life to the fullest" by following their best
intuitions and aiming for their greatest desires and
become wasteful to an extreme. They should plan for
certain consequences so that later in life, they don't
suffer from them. (the extensive use of the automobile
and the resulting pollution and related problems) As
another example, a couple should seriously discuss and
plan for a family before they decide to follow their
"momentary" plans. Or, a student who chooses to have
fun first before studying might not do his best on an
exam the following day.
Responses, anyone? Please, for a newcomer...
Wes.
--
"They're beating plowshares into swords
For this tired old man that we elected King." Don Henley and Bruce Hornsby
wrgo@{pucc/phoenix/bogey/gauguin}.Princeton.EDU on the netbitting-douglas@yale.edu (Douglas Bitting) (02/09/90)
I do not know if any of you here follow what happens over on soc.couples (at
least I think that is the group I am talking about), I stated a few things that
I believe about the Word of God. What I said has a lot to do about people
damning themselves by not accepting/"living" the Word of God. Anyway, the
question that everyone is throwing back at me (and I did expect it) is:
What about the people who have never heard of the Word of God? Do they,
too (i.e. along with the people who choose not to believe it), go to
hell?
Then they proceed to go on about how God is not just at all if this is the
case. Now, I know that there is an answer to this question for I have heard it
before. However, I do not remember what that answer is and it is troubling me.
I would appreciate any thoughts on this.
#8-)
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Doug Bitting || Arpa:
U.S. Snail Mail: || bitting-doug@cs.yale.edu
PO Box 3043 Yale Station || "Peace is Joy resting,
New Haven, CT || Joy is Peace dancing."
06520 || --source unknown to me
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[I trust you won't be shocked when I tell you that the last time
somebody asked this question there was a disagreement. To start with,
there are many passages in Scripture saying that salvation is only
from Christ. A particularly clear one is John 14:6 "No one comes to
the Father, but by me". Paul's discussions, particularly in Romans,
lead to the conclusion that we are all hopelessly lost except if
Christ saves us. Now the question becomes whether it is possible for
Christ to save someone who does not acknowledge him explicitly. This
is where the disagreements start. Paul is very clear on the
importance of believing in Christ. The most obvious interpretation of
this is that we must believe in him by name. As Paul says, "and how
are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?" (Rom 10:14)
So many Christians believe that someone must believe in Christ in
order to be saved, and those that we do not reach are therefore not
saved. There are a substantial number of people however who believe
that it is possible for Christ to call someone inwardly, and for them
to respond to his call even though they don't know it is Christ
specifically. One can find passages in Paul that seems to support
this, but whether in context they really do is a matter of
considerable debate. E.g. Rom 10 goes on to say that everyone in the
world has heard enough to be saved (Rom 10:18). Rom 2, although
discussing Jews and Gentiles, certainly seems to have an obvious
generalization that covers this issue. Someone who had not heard of
Christ might still have Christ in his heart inwardly. But as I said,
this is a matter of considerable debate. Interestingly, the current
Catholic view allows for "anonymous Christians", who have been called
by Christ but do not know his name. Many Protestants however are very
suspicious over this whole line or reasoning. It seems to challenge
the crucial role of faith in salvation. --clh]oracle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Brian T. Coughlin) (02/12/90)
[In article <Feb.9.02.10.55.1990.15511@athos.rutgers.edu>,
bitting-douglas@yale.edu (Douglas Bitting) asked about the fate of
people who had never heard the Word of God. --clh]
Your question brings up a common dilemma, I think. "Who can be saved?"
Then people start tossing about the ideas of "All-Merciful", "All-Knowing",
"All-Just" God, and the problems contained therein.
(*whew!*) Stiff dose of jargon, to clear the sinuses...! :)
Personal opinion: I certainly don't know who is to be saved, and who
isn't. To be totally honest, I haven't the slightest idea of what "being
saved" ENTAILS... I've heard more definitions than my poor mind can handle!
But I don't believe it matters, in the eyes of faith (another topic
altogether!). I believe that only God truly knows the ultimate fates of
all people, and it would be an exercise in futility to try to second-guess
the Divine Will (if not blasphemous, depending on your viewpoint!).
Short answer to "Who can be saved?": I haven't the foggiest. And I'm
pretty sure that no other mortal does, either... or ever will, until
the final time actually comes (be it death, Apocalypse, et cet.)
I hope this helps! Take care!
Sincerely,
Brian Coughlin
oracle@eleazar.dartmouth.eduhuggins@dip.eecs.umich.edu (James K. Huggins) (02/12/90)
In article <Feb.9.02.10.55.1990.15511@athos.rutgers.edu> bitting-douglas@yale.edu (Douglas Bitting) writes: > > What about the people who have never heard of the Word of God? Do they, > too (i.e. along with the people who choose not to believe it), go to > hell? > [lengthy discussion by our wonderful moderator omitted for space] Cliffe Knechtle, in his book _Give_Me_An_Answer_ (InterVarsity Press), offers the following explanation: (paraphrased) Ultimately, of course, we don't know for certain how God will judge those who have never heard of the Word of God, or, more specifically, the person of Jesus of Nazareth. But we do know a few things: 1) We know God to be a God of justice. Whatever happens to those who do not know about Jesus will not be a chance event, but will be the just actions of a just God. 2) We know that there are people in Heaven who never heard the name of Jesus while on earth. Hebrews 11 lists a large number of Old Testament people who are described by the writer as having received their reward and being in heaven. So, there must be some way to get to heaven without hearing the specific name of Jesus of Nazareth. 3) We know that no one will end up in hell because they didn't get a chance to study for some cosmic exam, so to speak. Those who are described as going to hell are those who have consistently rejected the direction of God upon their lives. 4) We know that no one will end up in heaven because they lived a superior life. The Pharisees lived lives of legalistic perfection -- yet Jesus consistently viewed them as outside of the Kingdom of God. 5) Regardless of how God will judge those who haven't heard about Jesus, we *have* heard. God will certainly judge us on the basis of what we do know -- and we do know about Jesus. (The point here: don't use this question as a dodge to confronting the claims of Jesus.)
sdn@motcsd.sjc.csd.mot.COM (Steve Newman) (02/22/90)
[This is a contributing to the continuing discussion of what happens to people who never heard the Word of God --clh] Regarding the question about what happens to those who never heard of Jesus Christ while they lived on the earth, I submit some thoughts and references that reflect my beliefs as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The idea that those who never heard of Jesus Christ would automatically be consigned to eternal damnation certainly seems unjust. However, the scriptures are clear that there are certain requirements to enter the kingdom of God; requirements that seem impossible for many of God's children to meet. For example, the Savior said, ". . .Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5, KJV) Also, in the sixteenth verse of the same chapter are the beautiful words: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." How can a person who lived 3000 years ago in China be born of the water and of the Spirit? How can that person believe in Christ when he probably never heard His name? First, I strongly believe that our Father in Heaven has made it possible for everyone to enjoy the blessings of the gospel of Jesus Christ, no matter when they lived. Furthermore, the way that this is accomplished is an integral part of Christ's gospel. As described in the 20th chapter of John, on the morning of the second day after the crucifixion, Mary Magdalene and a few other women went to the sepulchre to continue the preparation of Christ's body for burial. (They were unable to perform this service earlier because of the impending sabbath.) To their amazement, the stone covering the entrance had been rolled away. Mary Magdalene ran to get Peter and John and returned with them. After the apostles saw that Christ's body was gone they returned to their homes, leaving Mary outside the tomb. She spoke briefly with two angels, "And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus." (John 20:14, KJV) The 16th verse is short but full of emotion as it indicates Mary's joyful recognition of the risen Lord. Then, in the 17th verse as Mary undoubtedly intended to embrace Him, "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." Mary Magdalene did go to where the disciples were gathered and told them what she had seen. That evening Jesus appeared to them and then allowed the disciples to feel the wounds in His hands and feet and even ate with them. It is logical to conclude that between the time he saw Mary Magdalene in the morning and when he appeared to the disciples in the evening he had ascended to His Father. In the above account, there is an unexplained period of time between the death of Jesus on the cross and His resurrection. When He saw Mary outside the tomb Jesus indicated that He had not yet ascended to His Father. Therefore, where did Jesus' spirit go when it left his body? Here are two biblical references that apply: "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." (I Peter 3:18-20, KJV) and "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (I Peter 4:6, KJV) I believe with all the power I have to believe, that Christ made provision for His gospel to be preached to everyone, if not here on the earth, then in the place where spirits go after death. I realize this implies much that is not considered part of traditional Christian theology, but I offer it with my witness born of the Spirit that it is true and is but yet another part of Christ's gospel to bring us eternal happiness. -- =========================================================================== Steve Newman, Elk Grove, CA | "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean ..!apple!motcsd!NEWMAN!sdn | someone's not out to get you." -Unknown ===========================================================================
nick@lfcs.edinburgh.ac.uk (Nick Rothwell) (03/16/90)
In article <Mar.13.03.56.59.1990.13991@athos.rutgers.edu>, davem@.bnr (Dave Mielke) writes: >The perfect fairness with which God does things should, in fact, cause >each and every person who has come into contact with the Scriptures to >want to be very, very sure that he is saved. So why doesn't it? > Dave Mielke, 613-726-0014 Nick. -- Nick Rothwell, Laboratory for Foundations of Computer Science, Edinburgh. nick@lfcs.ed.ac.uk <Atlantic Ocean>!mcvax!ukc!lfcs!nick ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ A prop? ...or wings? A prop? ...or wings? A prop?
CONS.ELF@AIDA.CSD.UU.SE (Ake Eldberg (William de Corbie)) (03/19/90)
Dave Mielke argues that since there is no salvation except through Jesus Christ, people who never heard of him cannot be saved. Since God decides who will be saved, He will see to it that all He wants to save will hear the Word and become Christians. This reflects a form of Christianity which I find it very hard to embrace. What is the purpose of passing such a sentence on those who never heard of Christ? The only one I can see is a desire to make your own theological system watertight and all-encompassing. And what about all of those who have had Christ preached to them with force and hate? What of the poor people who have come to hate Christ because of the faults of those who claimed to be His servants? You resort to determinism, always a bad mistake. The important thing about salvation through Christ is the personal confrontation with the love of God as manifested in His Son. When we meet this love, we have no choice but to receive it, and it is in that situation where it is true to say that there is no other way to salvation. The statement belongs there. It is not an attempt to say anything about what will become of gentiles who were never reached by Christian preaching and never had a chance to believe. There is no need to say anything about what happens to them. Leave that to God, and trust Him to do it right. It is enough for us that we are certain that Christ is the Way and the only way. Ake Eldberg cons.elf@aida.csd.uu.se
brown@cs.utk.edu (Lance A. Brown) (11/27/90)
The following is something I need to talk about, but am not sure which newsgroup it is appropriate for. Therefore I am posting it to a number of different groups. I am NOT trying to start a flame war on christianity, nor am I trying to degrade it in any way. I just need to get some different viewpoints on this. Please be cognizant of which groups your follow-ups may end up in. Thanks. I had a funny thought while listening to the sermon this morning during the Lutheran service my wife and I went to. The pastor was talking about Christ the King Sunday, and Jesus Christ's role on Judgement Day. He said some things that may have surprised some of the people at the service. Specifically the pastor spoke about how Jesus would "separate the sheep from the goats" and that the criteria Jesus will use is one of works, and not faith. Thinking about it, this would mean that many people who have never stepped into a christian church would be among the sheep and many who went to church each Sunday and gave 5% of the income yearly, etc. would be set among the goats. This led me to what I believe is a possible contradiction (just one?!?!) in the christian doctrine. It seems really weird to me that "God" would create the human race with free will, punish us for dis-obeying him, offer salvation if we "choose" to return to him, and then basically discard everyone else. This seems really arrogant and callous to me. Also, what happens to the people who are NOT explicitly christian, but still live lives that "qualify" them for salvation on judgement day? Are they also relegated to damnation because they did not "choose" God and Christ? I know the above has not been stated as well as it could be, but I am not very much of a writer and cannot do any better. Lance -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Lance A. Brown brown@cs.utk.edu 3500 Sutherland Avenue, Apt. L-303 Graduate Student in Computer Science Knoxville, TN 37919 Sun SparcStations are Neat! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [The question of the "fairness" of damning people is an interesting one. People seem to have different reactions to the concept of judgement. As far as I can tell, until relatively recently, most people thought it was completely appropriate for God to take vengeance on evil people. Apparently it did not bother them that God created people free and put them into a situation that was dangerous to their eternal future. Part of the reason is probably that Christians felt God had done his best to push people in the right direction, and thus that you'd have to be pretty rotten to refuse God's grace. Yet in both this group and talk.religion.misc it seems clear that for many people in our audience, God's supposed actions are looking more and more capricious and ill-tempered. I think two things have combined to make this change: (1) There is now more contact with non-Christians. Until the 20th Cent. most of the people you knew were Christians. For much of Christian history, non-Christians were either the evil Moslems or the money-grubbing Jews [sorry - we're talking about stereotypes here, not reality or even competent theology]. Now we all know agnostics or atheists who seem to be people of good will, and adherents of non-Christian religions that seem to have some real spiritual insight. The old idea that non-Christian religions were counterfeits of Christianity created by the devil just doesn't seem plausible to many. (2) The concept of predestination had been around since Augustine, but only became dominant in a large part of Christianity in the Reformation. This caused God's judgement to take on a more capricious appearance. The Reformers took a darker view of human will. We are such hopeless cases that God must not only offer us redemption, but make us accept it. Thus the only ones who are saved are those that God chooses. While most Christians now do not accept predestination in its original form, this genie has proven very difficult to put back in the bottle. Predestination in its original form has been replaced by a sort of psychological equivalent. I believe most 20th Cent. Christians have in the back of their minds some sort of model that says a person's character -- and thus the response they make to God -- is the result of heredity and environment, i.e. forces out of their control. So even if God does not decide who is saved and who is not, the decision is still determined from the outside. It seems clear that to the NT authors -- and also to the Reformers -- the Gospel was indeed Good News. It may still be good news on an individual level. Christianity retains the power to free people from bondage to many different kinds of oppression. But when you look at the larger context, to many people Christianity no longer sounds like a message of hope for mankind as a whole. It sounds like a claim that those who are brought up Christian and have the "God bit" on are saved, and by and large the rest of the world is damned. There are several responses to this. First, many Christians now believe it is possible for non-Christians to be saved. One concept is that God finds a way to confront everyone. If they aren't in a Christian country, he may come to them in some form other than Christ. I would not want to say that all religions are equally true, but until we see him face to face in the next life we cannot expect to have a completely accurate view of God, and God may be willing to be accepted in forms that are varying distances from his true form. The term "anonymous Christian" has been used to refer to those who have a relationship with Christ without knowing his name. (By the way, I would *not* say that they are saved simply by doing good works. Good works have religious signifiance only when they are done as a response to God.) However this idea (even if you accept it) does not completely solve the problem. Many Christians would probably like to believe in some form of universalism (the belief that eventually God will find a way to save everyone), but the NT is clear enough about the existence of hell that few are willing to commit to this concept. It is possible to make Biblical arguments for it, but none of the arguments have been widely accepted. Probably the best argument is to take I Cor 3:15 as saying that everyone will come through the fire of judgement ultimately as saved, but that for some much of their being will have to be destroyed and rebuilt. However the more traditional view of judgement is so widespread throughout the NT that few Christians are prepared to take seriously hints of other things that appear in passages such as this one and Rom 11:32. --clh]
ta00est@unccvax.uncc.edu (elizabeth s tallant) (11/29/90)
In article <Nov.27.03.34.32.1990.22864@athos.rutgers.edu>, brown@cs.utk.edu (Lance A. Brown) writes: > > He said some things that may have surprised some of the people at > the service. Specifically the pastor spoke about how Jesus would > "separate the sheep from the goats" and that the criteria Jesus will > use is one of works, and not faith. By ignoring the rest of the Bible, this sounds as if God will judge everyone according to works. Well, the Bible tells us that this is not so. There will be at least two types of judgements. The first will involve judging whether or not a person will have eternal life or eternal damnation. Those who have salvation will have eternal life, those who do not will have eternal damnation. Then, God will again judge those who have salvation. These are the ones that He will judge according to their works. So, the judgement that you mention above is not a judgement of eternal life or death, but a judgement to decide which rewards are in store for those who already have salvation. > Thinking about it, this would mean that many people who have never > stepped into a christian church would be among the sheep and many who > went to church each Sunday and gave 5% of the income yearly, etc. > would be set among the goats. Exactly. However, please note again that this is a judgement for those who already have salvation. Now, regarding fairness, who do you think is better? A person who rarely ever attends church but spends large quantities of times and money helping others in need, or a person who attends church every Sunday and gives 5% of his/her income but wouldn't even speak to a poor black person, loan a hand to a brother in need, and continually gossips and backbites. You see, going to church and giving money can be turned into meaningless, mechanical acts. God will judge us for the spirit with which we give and worship. The Bible even tells us in several places that a gift given in the "wrong manner" is unacceptible to God. Now, please note that I am 110% for going to church and tithing, and that I am in no way condoning the abscence of either. > This led me to what I believe is a possible contradiction (just > one?!?!) in the christian doctrine. It seems really weird to me that > "God" would create the human race with free will, punish us for > dis-obeying him, offer salvation if we "choose" to return to him, and > then basically discard everyone else. This seems really arrogant and > callous to me. > God gives everyone the opportunity to follow Him. If we reject His good graces, then He holds us responsible. If I offered food to you, and you refused it and ended up starving half to death, would you then blame me because of your hunger? Of course not, because I offered food to you and YOU REFUSED to take it. Spiritual food and salvation follow the same manner. > Also, what happens to the people who are NOT explicitly christian, > but still live lives that "qualify" them for salvation on judgement > day? Are they also relegated to damnation because they did not > "choose" God and Christ? > I'm glad that you asked this, as it gives the opportunity to explain an extremely common misconception. First, there is no such thing as a life that qualifies you for salvation. Paul is very explicit about telling us that even Abraham was justified by faith and not by works. What God is looking for is not our actions but our attitude towards Him. As we all know, there are people who will not have the opportunity to hear witnessing from a Christian nor will they be able to read the Bible. God says that He has written His laws upon the hearts of man. Thus, those who do not have the written word, or the Bible, will be held responsible for the laws in their hearts. Since they do not have the written word, they will be held to a lesser degree of responsibility than those of us who do. Thus, a person who does not call himself a Christian can have salvation, but only if that person does not have access to the written word. I personally believe that God knows that these people would be practicing Christians if they had the knowledge. Now, this in no way means that other religions will bring salvation: they will not. To illustrate, I have seen this type of phenominon in a few people from Islamic countries who have had little interaction with Christians. Many of these people reject the Islamic beliefs of temporary marriage, polygamy, and "holy war" even though Islam teaches that these practices should be followed. Yet, these people defend Islam to the hilt because it is the only religion that they know. Yet, their personal practices are similar to those of Christians. It is my opinion that these people are following the laws that God has written on their hearts, not the laws found in Islam. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Lance A. Brown brown@cs.utk.edu > 3500 Sutherland Avenue, Apt. L-303 Graduate Student in Computer Science > Knoxville, TN 37919 Sun SparcStations are Neat! > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > I would not want to say that all religions are equally true, If you are a Christian, then you will say that only ONE religion is true, and that ONE religion is Christianity. but until > we see him face to face in the next life we cannot expect to have a > completely accurate view of God, and God may be willing to be accepted > in forms that are varying distances from his true form. I'm not quite sure what you intended to say here, but what you said can be construed as saying that other religions will get you to Heaven. This is totally false. Anyone who has knowledge of Christianity and then chooses to follow Buddism, Judaism, Hinduism, Islam or whatever, does not have salvation and will be eteranlly damned. The key here is the extent of a person's knowlege. And don't forget, as Christians, it is our responsibility to teach others this knowledge. [I was not saying that the other religion would get you into heaven, but that your response to God would. (This is of course also true for Christians.) I was in fact thinking primarily of the case of people who had not encountered Christianity. However I would rather leave these judgements to God. There are encounters and there are encounters. What about the Jew who has seen Christians only as persecutors? I can easily imagine circumstances where becoming a Christian would be a violation of God's will. The fact that such situations exist is of course a serious matter for the Church, for which we will no doubt be held to account. --clh]
farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) (11/29/90)
In article <Nov.27.03.34.32.1990.22864@athos.rutgers.edu>, brown@cs.utk.edu (Lance A. Brown) writes: > I had a funny thought while listening to the sermon this morning >during the Lutheran service my wife and I went to. The pastor was >talking about Christ the King Sunday, and Jesus Christ's role on >Judgement Day. > > He said some things that may have surprised some of the people at >the service. Specifically the pastor spoke about how Jesus would >"separate the sheep from the goats" and that the criteria Jesus will >use is one of works, and not faith. Your pastor was 100% correct. In every case judgement is mentioned by the Bible it is always says that we will be judged by our works, or by our fruiths. We don't have a single case where it is said that we will be judged by our faith. How do we reconcile the fact that Paul said that we are save by grace through faith? Faith in the lord Jesus Christ is the one which makes it possible for us to do good works. So, faith is essential for our salvation, however, if we have no good works then we have dead faith, and we are just fooling ourselfs. I guess an all knowing God would know better then anyone else that words and intentions without actions is nothing but hot air. I recommend for your reading James 2:14-26. > > Thinking about it, this would mean that many people who have never >stepped into a christian church would be among the sheep and many who >went to church each Sunday and gave 5% of the income yearly, etc. >would be set among the goats. > > This led me to what I believe is a possible contradiction (just >one?!?!) in the christian doctrine. It seems really weird to me that >"God" would create the human race with free will, punish us for >dis-obeying him, offer salvation if we "choose" to return to him, and >then basically discard everyone else. This seems really arrogant and >callous to me. > > Also, what happens to the people who are NOT explicitly christian, >but still live lives that "qualify" them for salvation on judgement >day? Are they also relegated to damnation because they did not >"choose" God and Christ? > > You are one of the few who ask the question, how does a theological believe reflect on the character of God? You are on the right road, and you are not too far from the kingdom of God. It is absolutely amazing to me how many of us accept believes which makes a devil out of God. What I am going to tell you is LDS doctrin and I show you that it is supported by the Bible. 1. No person will go to hell who didn't have the opportunity to hear and to respond to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Those who didn't have the opportunity in this world will have it in the spirit world. Peter told us that the gospel is preached in the spirit world, and for the reason it is done: I Peter 3:18-19 =============== "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:" "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;" I Peter 4:6 ----------- "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." 2. There is more than one heaven. Paul said that he went up to the third heaven, which implies that there are at least three heavens. He also said that the resurrection of the dead will differ in glory. Jesus himself said that there are many mentions in his Father's house. 2 Corint 12:3 ============= "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I can't tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such a one caught up to the third heaven." I Corint 15:41-42 ================= "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also the resurrection of the dead. ..." John 14:2 ========= "In my fathers house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go prepare a place for you." >I know the above has not been stated as well as it could be, but I am >not very much of a writer and cannot do any better. > > Lance > >-- >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Lance A. Brown brown@cs.utk.edu >3500 Sutherland Avenue, Apt. L-303 Graduate Student in Computer Science >Knoxville, TN 37919 Sun SparcStations are Neat! >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- With brotherly love, Frank
vm0t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Vincent Paul Mulhern) (11/30/90)
> Excerpts from netnews.soc.religion.christian: 29-Nov-90 Re: A Question > Frank Farkas@eng.sun.com (4704) > >the service. Specifically the pastor spoke about how Jesus would > >"separate the sheep from the goats" and that the criteria Jesus will > >use is one of works, and not faith. > Your pastor was 100% correct. In every case judgement is mentioned by > the Bible it is always says that we will be judged by our works, or by > our fruiths. We don't have a single case where it is said that we will > be > judged by our faith. No, but we have lots of cases where it is said that we'll be saved by it. Check out Romans 3 21-end. And how about John 3:16? I've always understood that "separate the sheep from the goats" referred to salvation and not to judgement. I affirm what Elizabeth Tallant said regarding this...that there will be a judgment of those who are saved after the others are separated from God's people. In Galatians 3, Paul says that those who are trying to gain salvation by works are being foolish, and that they have been bewitched. Woe be to the bewitchers! Salvation is something the body of Christ had better get to understand. Jesus came here precisely BECAUSE it is impossible to work my way to the Lord. We're told that the righteousness of men is as filthy rags to God. How in the world could we ever earn salvation? I count myself blessed that I can identify the specific moment I was saved. I'd tried to figure out for 20 years what to do to avoid going to hell. Nothing I did was ever good enough, and I knew it. But somebody finally told me that it took an individual, intentional, rational realization that Jesus is Lord of everything, and I am part of that everything. I recognized His supremacy, and did what Romans 10 9-10 says to do. If I had died a moment before I heard what I did, I'd be in hell. There is no doubt at all. I am not mistaken or misguided about this. All the years of honest, intentional striving to do good would not have mattered AT ALL. If I had died as I said 'amen' after praying with my friend, I'd be in heaven. No uncertainty. No doubt. Not everyone experienced this that way. As I said...I count myself blessed. But God knows what's in a person's heart, and so does that person. If a person honestly believes Jesus is Lord, and he will confess that, then he doesn't have to do anything else to be saved. (being baptized is something Jesus said to do, and I don't think you acknowledge someone as Lord and then disobey them...but I'm not willing to say you'll go to hell if you aren't baptized, too.) Not everyone makes a decision in one specific moment like I did, but in each person's heart, either He is Lord or He isn't*. God knows, and they know. (*I'm not addressing the issue of the African savage, etc. etc.) Finally, about James 2. a few points... 1) James is writing to Christians, not people who need salvation. 2) He does NOT say 'works instead of faith'. He says 'Since you have faith, put it to work for others.' 3) He's talking about dealing with the needs of others. If we really believe that God is willing to meet that need, then YOU meet theirs, and let God meet yours. THAT is LIVING faith. James is not addressing the topic of salvation. He's talking about whether you're acting according to your faith or to your laziness. I have a constant struggle with this myself (so did Paul, and every Christian between us). But it has no bearing on whether or not I will go to heaven. Be careful to take passages in their possible context. In conclusion, I'd offer a warning. We have to be right, and not just sincere and committed to Jesus, when we teach. James 3:1 warns us to be right. Jesus said woe be unto him who brings a stumbling block to others...better that he be drowned than do that. Yes, doing good works is VITAL to being a servant of the Lord, avoiding hypocrisy, and being a sign to others. But saying salvation is determined by this is to deny grace, exalt ourselves, and put to shame the redemptive sacrifice God provided. Jesus is Lord... -Vince Mulhern
hall@vice.ico.tek.com (Hal Lillywhite) (11/30/90)
In article <Nov.27.03.34.32.1990.22864@athos.rutgers.edu> brown@cs.utk.edu (Lance A. Brown) writes: > I had a funny thought while listening to the sermon this morning >during the Lutheran service my wife and I went to. The pastor was >talking about Christ the King Sunday, and Jesus Christ's role on >Judgement Day. > He said some things that may have surprised some of the people at >the service. Specifically the pastor spoke about how Jesus would >"separate the sheep from the goats" and that the criteria Jesus will >use is one of works, and not faith. I suspect your pastor is a bit unusual (and of course in a brief posting you can't include the whole sermon so it's hard to determine exactly what he was saying). However, I am inclined to agree with at least the general idea. The theme comes from Mat 25:31-46, the "Parable of the Sheep and the Goats." As you say, those who visit the sick, feed the hungry, clothe the naked etc. are sheep who inherit the kingdom prepared by the Father. Those who do not do are goats who go to everlasting fire. Note that this parable specifically refers to "all nations" and there is nothing in the language to indicate any exceptions, be they disciples or not. So how do we reconcile this with other biblical statements that we are saved by grace, not works? Can both statements be true? In fact I believe they are, we are saved by the grace of Jesus but we must "work" to qualify for that grace. If we do not love our neighbor and manifest that love with our actions we will not receive the grace necessary for salvation. Please note that we do not "earn" grace, to earn something means to do work of value equivalent to what is being earned. There is obviously no way for us to do work equivalent to the value of salvation. However I think we are expected to do what we can. In the words of the Book of Mormon, "We are saved by grace, after all we can do." I think there 2 sources of the misunderstanding which leads to the idea that works have nothing to do with salvation: 1. Faith. Clearly our salvation depends on faith. However, we must understand faith as it was used by the writers of the Bible. I am convinced that to them faith was more a verb than a noun. The word implies action. That's why James refers to showing faith by our works (James 2:14-26, esp v 18). Faith without works is dead and useless. We need a living faith for salvation. Faith by definition, I think, must include works. 2. Misunderstanding of some of Paul's teachings. Paul on several occasions refers to salvation being by grace, not works. Some of these taken out of context seem to say that works are not necessary at all. However a careful reading of the context shows that in nearly all cases the Paul was talking about works of the Law of Moses. Remember that this was the great religious question of the early church. The law had been *the* way to approach God for centuries and the early Christians naturally were reluctant to abandon it. Paul's letters were mostly written to address specific problems which arose and the problem of the law was one which came up frequently. I would urge my readers (assuming I have any) to go to their favorite "works vs. grace" passage and see if it is not in the context of a comparison of the gospel with the law. Perhaps this is what Peter was referring to when he called some of Paul's writings "hard to be understood." (2 Pet 3:15-16) Considering the passages where Paul condemns those who persist in sin (liars, whoremongers, etc.) and urges righteous living and charity I think Paul also believed in works as necessary to salvation. He just meant real works of righteousness, not just external performances of the law. I think this idea of the necessity of works to qualify for grace goes along with Jesus's teachings, particularly in the sermon on the mount. Jesus taught a righteousness beyond that of the Scribes and Pharisees. Long prayers to be seen of men were not acceptable, prayer should be a private communication with God. Alms for the poor were commended but only if truly given, not when given to be seen by others. Love was to be extended even to one's enemies. Jesus taught an inward total righteousness. While this righteousness did not include a lot of ceremonial requirements it did include proper treatment of our fellow beings. > Thinking about it, this would mean that many people who have never >stepped into a christian church would be among the sheep and many who >went to church each Sunday and gave 5% of the income yearly, etc. >would be set among the goats. Well, as the saying goes, going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than sleeping in a garage will make you a Chevy. Certainly Jesus sayings are full of statements condemning as hypocrites those who outwardly appear righteous but are not so inwardly. I think most churches believe that there will be those who attend regularly but will not be saved. It is probably less common (but not unheard of) for a church to teach that someone who never attends can be saved. In any case, I think most would agree that what is really required for salvation is a change of heart and that it is possible to do all the outward things to appear religious but not have this change of heart. ... > Also, what happens to the people who are NOT explicitly christian, >but still live lives that "qualify" them for salvation on judgement >day? Are they also relegated to damnation because they did not >"choose" God and Christ? Well, I don't think anyone who has a real chance to accept Christ and rejects it will be saved. However there are of course many who have no such chance in this life. I believe they will have that chance between death and resurrection. This has been discussed here before but if you want I will email you more information on it.
wagner@karazm.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) (11/30/90)
In article <Nov.27.03.34.32.1990.22864@athos.rutgers.edu> brown@cs.utk.edu (Lance A. Brown) writes: > > He said some things that may have surprised some of the people at >the service. Specifically the pastor spoke about how Jesus would >"separate the sheep from the goats" and that the criteria Jesus will >use is one of works, and not faith. The picture in Matthew 25:31-46 is one of Judgement Day. Christ will separate the believers from the unbelievers, the sheep from the goats. The image of Christ as a shepherd is also used in John 10:11-18; in v. 14 he says: "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me". In particular I stress that the sheep know Christ. They follow him as sheep follow their shepherd. They are believers. So why does the King speak of their works? Let me answer in this way: The 'sheep' show no awareness of having done such great works; evidently they have not trusted in their works for their salvation. But the King cites their works, I believe, as *evidence* that they have faith. He does this primarily to show that he is a just judge, who punishes the wicked and justifies the good. Christians, including Lutherans, have always taught that faith produces works. Works are the fruit of faith. In reality faith cannot exist without works, they are inseparable. However Paul makes very clear in Romans ch. 3, 4 that we are justified by faith apart from works. (ch 3:28). To be justified is a legal term, meaning to be acquitted, or 'declared righteous'. The same message is taught in Ephesians 2:8,9.: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast." It is interesting to see what kind of works he sets forth as evidence. He cites works of service and mercy to 'these brothers of mine'. These brothers of Christ are, again, the believers, who have received the adoption as sons of God (Romans 8:14-17) who can call God 'Abba', literally 'Daddy', just as Christ did (Mark 14:36). Who also are called members of the body of Christ, so that literally whatever we do for them is done for Christ. > > Thinking about it, this would mean that many people who have never >stepped into a christian church would be among the sheep and many who >went to church each Sunday and gave 5% of the income yearly, etc. >would be set among the goats. The only way I could agree with you here, is that some may believe in Christ but never attend church--which seems unlikely, because a believer would seek the fellowship of his fellow sheep, and also because Christ cites their service to their fellow sheep. That there are unbelievers within the visible church is in fact a clear teaching of Scripture. See the parable of the wheat and the weeds (tares) (Matthew 13:24-30). So I have no argument with your conclusion that many churchgoers will be among the goats. > This led me to what I believe is a possible contradiction (just >one?!?!) in the christian doctrine. It seems really weird to me that >"God" would create the human race with free will, punish us for >dis-obeying him, offer salvation if we "choose" to return to him, and >then basically discard everyone else. This seems really arrogant and >callous to me. This asks a whole bunch of questions that might be answered with a book and not a short article. I will try to give you a brief answer, but you would also do well to sit down with a Lutheran pastor, (preferrably from the WELS or ELS, IMHO), and ask him the same question. 1. God created Adam and Eve with free will. They freely chose to disobey him. In so doing they and all their descendants lost that free will and became slaves to Satan. They became 'dead in their transgressions and sins' (Ephesians 2). 2. Because of the rebellion of Adam and Eve, man's nature is in such a corrupted state that he cannot save himself, nor can he 'choose' to return to God. This has less to do with God's fairness than with Satan's wickedness. We are like mad dogs who continually bite the hand that feeds us. 3. As an aside, God barred Adam and Eve from the garden as an act of mercy, to keep them from eating of the tree of life and living forever in a state of rebellion against and separation from God. 4. As an act of mercy, which we in no way deserve, God sent his only begotten Son Jesus, to become one of us, to live a perfect and holy life as one of us, and to take the punishment that we deserve upon himself through his death on the cross. In this act of grace (i.e., undeserved love and mercy) Jesus redeemed *all* men from sin and Satan. That's right, God redeemed all of us, both unbeliever and believer. We call this 'universal', or 'objective' justification. "For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died [with Christ]." And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again." 2 Cor 5:14,15 We receive this justification through faith. But the unbeliever remains in hostility to God and rejects his salvation. "The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God." Romans 8:6-8. Note that this speaks about unbelievers, those 'controlled by the sinful nature, who have not been reborn through faith, or 'made alive in Christ' (Ephesians 2), or 'born of water and the Spirit' (John 3). They cannot please God. > Also, what happens to the people who are NOT explicitly christian, >but still live lives that "qualify" them for salvation on judgement >day? Are they also relegated to damnation because they did not >"choose" God and Christ? > None of us *deserves* salvation. Those who are cast into the eternal fire get what they deserve. Those who inherit the kingdom get what they do not deserve. Think for a minute (or longer) on what kind of holiness and perfection God's law demands of you, and then ask yourself whether you want to get what you deserve, or do you want to receive the salvation that is offered to you as a free gift? >I know the above has not been stated as well as it could be, but I am >not very much of a writer and cannot do any better. > > Lance I too, often feel that I must not be expressing myself very well. "Who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?" This is Isaiah 53:1. It expresses some of the frustration I feel in posting to the net. It seems Isaiah felt the same way. But read the rest of Isaiah 53, and compare it to the life, death, and resurrection of Christ, and see if this perfectly fulfilled prophecy, 600 years before Christ, does not shore up your faith somewhat. David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran. My opinions and beliefs on this matter are disclaimed by The University of Houston.
wagner@karazm.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) (11/30/90)
In article <Nov.29.00.09.52.1990.14052@athos.rutgers.edu> ta00est@unccvax.uncc.edu (elizabeth s tallant) writes: > >Then, God will again judge those who have salvation. These are the ones >that He will judge according to their works. So, the judgement that you >mention above is not a judgement of eternal life or death, but a judgement >to decide which rewards are in store for those who already have salvation. I think you might want to rethink this. The goats are thrown into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matthew 25:41) David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran. "The world is very evil, The times are waxing late; Be sober and keep vigil, The Judge is at the gate; The Judge that comes in mercy, The Judge that comes with might, To terminate the evil, To diadem the right." --from "Hora Novissima" --Bernard of Morlas, 1140 from 'The Lutheran Hymnal', #605 My opinions and beliefs on this matter are disclaimed by The University of Houston.
garyh@crash.cts.com (Gary Hipp) (11/30/90)
In article <Nov.29.00.09.52.1990.14052@athos.rutgers.edu> ta00est@unccvax.uncc.edu (elizabeth s tallant) writes: >In article <Nov.27.03.34.32.1990.22864@athos.rutgers.edu>, brown@cs.utk.edu (Lance A. Brown) writes: >persecutors? I can easily imagine circumstances where becoming a >Christian would be a violation of God's will. The fact that such >situations exist is of course a serious matter for the Church, for >which we will no doubt be held to account. --clh] I would like to ask you to briefly identify "circumstances where becoming a Christian would be a violation of God's will." I find this hard to swallow. Gary [I thought I had outlined it. Consider a situation where a non-Christian community is being persecuted by Christians, and members of it are under heavy pressure to convert to Christianity. Of course God will judge each person based on their hearts and not jsut the outward action, but in such a circumstance it is unlikely that members of this community would see Christianity as a response to God's love. I think it is reasonable to believe that in most cases conversions would be based on a desire for worldly gain. Even if it were not, Mat. 5:10-11 (as well as the prophets, Psalms, etc.) suggests that God is on the side of the persecuted, not the persecutor, and I believe this would be the case even if the persecutors labelled themselves as Christian. I would like to think that the situation I am describing is one that is impossible to happen in practice. Perhaps one could make it so by defining any group that carries out religious persecution as being by definition non-Christian. However under normal definitions, this situation has been all too common. --clh]
farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) (12/04/90)
In article <Nov.30.04.28.06.1990.4856@athos.rutgers.edu>, vm0t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Vincent Paul Mulhern) writes: >> Excerpts from netnews.soc.religion.christian: 29-Nov-90 Re: A Question >> Frank Farkas@eng.sun.com (4704) > >> >the service. Specifically the pastor spoke about how Jesus would >> >"separate the sheep from the goats" and that the criteria Jesus will >> >use is one of works, and not faith. > >> Your pastor was 100% correct. In every case judgement is mentioned by >> the Bible it is always says that we will be judged by our works, or by >> our fruiths. We don't have a single case where it is said that we will >> be >> judged by our faith. > >No, but we have lots of cases where it is said that we'll be saved by it. > > Check out Romans 3 21-end. And how about John 3:16? I've always >understood that "separate the sheep from the goats" referred to >salvation and not to judgement. I believe that both of you are wrong in your understanding of the parable of the sheeps and the goats. Read Matt 25: 34&41 where the judgement is rendered for the sheeps and the goats. I believe that both of you are engaged in rationalization. > If a person honestly believes Jesus is Lord, and he will >confess that, then he doesn't have to do anything else to be saved. >(being baptized is something Jesus said to do, and I don't think you >acknowledge someone as Lord and then disobey them...but I'm not willing >to say you'll go to hell if you aren't baptized, too.) Just a some food for taught: 1. Why did Jesus and the all of the writers of the N.T. admonish the saints to do good works? 2. Why is it that all of the passages on the judgement says that we will be judged based on our works, or on our fruiths? Secondly, the scripture does say that we will be saved if we believe and if we will be baptised. The scriptures are explicitly clear regarding the requirements of baptism. Mark 16:16 ---------- "He that believeth and is baptised shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." John 3:5 ======== "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto the, Except a man be born of the water and of the spirit, he can't enter into the kingdom of God." Now, if we don't want to accept the scripture on this subject is because we have been misled, or because we don't want to. Please don't bring up other passages which in your mind will obsolete, or make the ones I quoted no longer operational. Unfortunately, we are engaged many times by the game of using scripture to disprove scripture to support our own theology which we feel comfortable with. It is a false logic when we have two apparently contradictory passage in the Bible and we explain one of them away (of course, we explain the one away which don't happened to fit our concept of the truth). We are being asked to choose one or the other. This logic ignores the fact that both of them are true, and there are no contradictions at all. > > Finally, about James 2. a few points... > 1) James is writing to Christians, not people who need salvation. Of course he does! This is the reason why it is so important that we understand the importance of good works. > 2) He does NOT say 'works instead of faith'. He says 'Since you have >faith, put it to work for others.' He is absolutly correct! But tell me, who is the one who supposed to put their faith to works? We are, not God! > 3) He's talking about dealing with the needs of others. If we really >believe that God is willing to meet that need, then YOU meet theirs, and >let God meet yours. THAT is LIVING faith. James is not addressing the >topic of salvation. He's talking about whether you're acting according >to your faith or to your laziness. I have a constant struggle with this >myself (so did Paul, and every Christian between us). But it has no >bearing on whether or not I will go to heaven. Be careful to take >passages in their possible context. > It all depends what you mean by heaven. Paul wrote that he was caught up into the third heaven!??!! 2 Corint 12:3-4 =============== "I knew a man in Christ above fourteenyears ago, (whether in the body, I can't tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such a one caught up to the third heaven." "How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter." He also explains us that the resurrection of the dead will differ in glory. Interestingly he identified three types of Glory, and differences in glory in one of the types: I Corint 15:41-42 ***************** "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also the resurrection of the dead. ..." Let me ask the question, do you really believe that you will be joint heirs with Christ, even though you have no good works? Some food for thoughts. > In conclusion, I'd offer a warning. We have to be right, and not >just sincere and committed to Jesus, when we teach. James 3:1 warns us >to be right. Jesus said woe be unto him who brings a stumbling block to >others...better that he be drowned than do that. Yes, doing good works >is VITAL to being a servant of the Lord, avoiding hypocrisy, and being a >sign to others. But saying salvation is determined by this is to deny >grace, exalt ourselves, and put to shame the redemptive sacrifice God >provided. > >Jesus is Lord... >-Vince Mulhern Brother, when we teach the unimportance of good works, we teach things which is not true at all. I believe that good works are important, other wise we wouldn't be taught by the scriptures that they are. When we say that we don't need to have good works to be joint heirs with Christ, we are teaching something which is false. When we are saying that there is no relationship between faith and good works, we are saying something which is false. The scriptures do speak clearly regarding this subject: James 2:17 ========== " Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead alone." If we say that we believe and we have no good works, how are we goiung to be saved with our dead faith? James 2:19 ========== "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also belive, and tremble." James 2:21-22 ============= "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, and by works was faith made perfect?" "Seest thou how faith wrought with works, and by works was faith made perfect?" James 2:24 ========== "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." With brotherly love, Frank
mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) (12/04/90)
In article <Nov.30.04.28.06.1990.4856@athos.rutgers.edu> vm0t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Vincent Paul Mulhern) writes: >But somebody finally told me that it took an individual, intentional, >rational realization that Jesus is Lord of everything, and I am part of >that everything. Who was that somebody, and in what circumstances did this somebody tell you this? What is meant by "Jesus", "Lord" and "everything" in the context you use them? Matthew Huntbach
YZKCU@cunyvm.bitnet (Yaakov Kayman) (12/06/90)
In article <Nov.29.00.09.52.1990.14052@athos.rutgers.edu>, ta00est@unccvax.uncc.edu (elizabeth s tallant) says: > ... >First, there is no such thing as a life that qualifies you for salvation. >Paul is very explicit about telling us that even Abraham was justified >by faith and not by works. ... >I'm not quite sure what you intended to say here, but what you said can >be construed as saying that other religions will get you to Heaven. >This is totally false. Anyone who has knowledge of Christianity and >then chooses to follow ..., Judaism, ..., or whatever, does not have >salvation and will be eteranlly damned. The key here is the extent of a >person's knowlege. And don't forget, as Christians, it is our responsi- >bility to teach others this knowledge. (I'll leave it to Buddhists, Moslems, etc. to give the views of their own belief systems. My religion is JUDAISM.) Realizing this is soc.religion.CHRISTIAN, and that the above views are presumably all legitimately part of Christianity, please allow me none- theless to say that I, as a Jew, find them to be an outrage as well as utterly false. Understand that in Judaism, practice is the most important thing (what I believe Christians would call "works?"), salvation is an alien concept unknown to us (and unwanted, Elizabeth!), and that Jews view the above attitudes as manifestations of the hatred (not of love, Elizabeth!) which has led to persecution of Jews BY CHRISTIANS (or people calling themselves such) throughout the ages, and continues to result in the obnoxious attempts by certain persons to jam their unwelcome ideas down unwilling Jewish throats. We are beginning to lose our gag reflexes from having these unwelcome ideas repeatedly shoved down our unwilling Jewish throats. You have done this in the forum of soc.culture.JEWISH, and in unsolicited and unwelcome private e-mail to various individuals, including myself. We Jews have repeatedly told you that we view these activities as nothing less than manifestations of Jew-hatred, and have repeatedly complained to you to stop. You have not. A victim, not a perpetrator, is the one to say what is and is not hatred. Intentions matter not at all to us in light of these actions. We do know infinitely more than you about what Jew-hatred is. Do stop these practices now. By the way, to those who would preach of love vs. alleged "sternness" of G-d, the Jewish way states that the righteous of ALL the Nations of the World will have a share in the World to Come (what Christians call "Heaven?"). Righteousness in the above statement refers to observance of the Seven Noachide Commandments which G-d gave to ALL the Nations of the World. Yaakov K. -------- Yaakov Kayman (212) 903-3666 City University of New York BITNET: YZKCU@CUNYVM "Lucky is the shepherd, and lucky his flock Internet: YZKCU@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU about whom the wolves complain"
vm0t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Vincent Paul Mulhern) (12/12/90)
> Excerpts from netnews.soc.religion.christian: 4-Dec-90 Re: A Question > Frank Farkas@eng.sun.com (6628) > Brother, when we teach the unimportance of good works, we teach things > which > is not true at all. I believe that good works are important, other wise > we > wouldn't be taught by the scriptures that they are. When we say that we > don't need to have good works to be joint heirs with Christ, we are > teaching something which is false. I do not say that good works are unimportant. I didn't imply that (see the last paragraph I wrote). I fully acknowledge their importance. I agree that scripture teaches this. But it does NOT teach that we can be saved by doing them. What good works did the criminal who was crucified with Jesus do? NONE. The last thing he did before he died was have faith (an active verb) in Jesus. We're going to see a man in heaven who did NO good works after he was saved. Saying we need good works to be joint heirs with Christ is NOT correct. I submit to you that the crook is a joint heir with Him. We are, however, called/required/expected to do them after we're saved (while still on the earth, this life, etc. etc...) But we DO NOT earn salvation with them. It is necessarily a gift. It therefore, by definition, isn't something we earn. To say otherwise throws GRACE out the window. Either it's a gift, or it's earned. How can anyone EARN salvation? They can't. If it's earned, then I go to hell. And so does Peter, Paul, Mary, (ha ha...sorry.) and all the rest. But it's not. It's a FREE GIFT. Romans 8:9 (well, the whole chapter, really) puts things in the proper order: FIRST you get to the state where the Spirit of God lives in you (a.k.a. 'salvation'...this happened to the crook, and is by FAITH) and THEN the renewal process (turn from sin and 'live a christian life') begins. It says (vs. 14) those who are led by the Spirit of God (i.e. have been saved) are sons of God...vs 16 then calls us joint-heirs with Jesus. But the whole process is not started by doing works. It starts with faith. Romans 4 deals with the fact that FAITH is where it comes from. Works may give us grounds for boasting, but not with God. In conclusion, I do not at all downplay the importance of good works. But I really take issue with any teaching that says 'you have to be THIS good to get saved.' No, you don't. There are high standards for a christian to meet, but meeting those standards without/before having faith in Jesus will not do diddly squat for getting a person into heaven. The faith comes first. If it's the other way, then that criminal should be in hell and all the pharisees should not have been rebuked for anything. They had the works down pat. No faith in God, though. And we all know what Jesus had to say about that.
cms@gatech.edu (12/17/90)
In article <Dec.11.22.21.31.1990.28193@athos.rutgers.edu>, vm0t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Vincent Paul Mulhern) writes: > I do not say that good works are unimportant. I didn't imply that (see > the last paragraph I wrote). I fully acknowledge their importance. I > agree that scripture teaches this. But it does NOT teach that we can be > saved by doing them. > What good works did the criminal who was crucified with Jesus do? > NONE. The last thing he did before he died was have faith (an active > verb) in Jesus. We're going to see a man in heaven who did NO good > works after he was saved. Repentence is a good work. If you do not repent, you cannot be saved, accordining to one point of view, thus the last action he performed on earth was a good work that saved him. But it isn't our good works that save us, but our faith, however, before we can have faith we must perform the action (the good work) of "turning back to the Lord," that is to say, repenting, otherwise we have demonstrated that we have no faith. Thus, while our good works do not save us, but rather our faith, our good works are nonetheless essential to our salvation, since without them we have demonstrated our lack of faith. > In conclusion, I do not at all downplay the importance of good > works. But I really take issue with any teaching that says 'you have to > be THIS good to get saved.' No, you don't. There are high standards > for a christian to meet, but meeting those standards without/before > having faith in Jesus will not do diddly squat for getting a person into > heaven. The faith comes first. If it's the other way, then that > criminal should be in hell and all the pharisees should not have been > rebuked for anything. They had the works down pat. No faith in God, > though. And we all know what Jesus had to say about that. This is why the first thing Jesus taught after his baptism in the river Jordan was, "Repent [a good work], for the kingdom of God is at hand." The idea is that your good works must flow from your faith. As Jesus said, without a Bible in front of me, "The good person from the good treasure of his heart brings forth the good, whereas the evil person from the evil treasure of his heart brings forth the evil." In other words, if Joe Blow helps the poor because he wants to go to heaven, he won't, whereas if Sally Anne helps the poor because she loves God and therefore loves her neighbor (knowing this will get her into heaven, but getting into heaven isn't her primary goal), then she will. Jesus also called this, "Circumcision of the heart." Helping the poor for personal gain (even personal salvation) means nothing unless one's heart is truly full of love. Let me be just a little bit more explicit to avoid confusion. Joe Blow says, "I hate God, but I know he's real. Helping the poor, although I hate them, is just one of those dumb things you've got to do, according to the rules, to get to heaven. So, I do it, but I don't like it, don't like God, don't like them, but I sure don't like hell, so I do it." That's called a bad attitude and Jesus said your actions come from the treasures of your heart; which treasure your action comes from determines its "goodness" or its "badness" regardless of how others view the immediate result. Thus, even helping the poor, if done for the wrong reason, can be construed as "sinful" and not really a good work. Having a close personal relationship with Jesus (as I do through the Immaculate Heart of Mary, for example) is the first step in circumcision of the heart. Ask me, "have you been saved," and I'll say "yes," but this idea of "personal salvation" and "a personal relationship with Jesus" are concepts that, I think, have been abused in the past, held up as gods that are worshipped by the masses, who would rather "say the right words" than think about what they really mean. My own personal salvation is important to me but if I do not place the personal salvation of others as of primary importance in my life, I have learned nothing from Jesus. The reason Jesus died on the Cross wasn't to "get to heaven" but rather to save us from our sins. If we are to imitate Jesus, and I believe we are, then we concentrate on doing good and helping others to know Jesus without formulas but through their own hearts to His Sacred Heart. Attaining salvation, "getting to heaven," is the result but not the goal of doing good works, that is to say, repenting, praying, helping people to know Jesus, etc. Of course, I'm using heaven here in the common sense of "eternal bliss." If you use heaven in the sense of "unity with God," then that is the goal. I suppose what I've been trying to say is that eternal happiness isn't the goal of religion, though it is the result, since unity with God is the goal and the result. Thus, heaven isn't necessarily a place of eternal bliss; there is sadness and happiness in unity with God along with fulfillment and inner peace, or the Cross has taught us nothing. -- Sincerely, Cindy Smith _///_ // SPAWN OF A JEWISH _///_ // _///_ // <`)= _<< CARPENTER _///_ //<`)= _<< <`)= _<< _///_ // \\\ \\ \\ _\\\_ <`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ <`)= _<< >IXOYE=('> \\\ \\ \\\ \\_///_ // // /// _///_ // _///_ // emory!dragon!cms <`)= _<< _///_ // <`)= _<< <`)= _<< \\\ \\<`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\\ \\ A Real Live Catholic in Georgia Although not a Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's court, I am: A Real Live Southern Catholic in the Anglican Communion.
mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) (12/19/90)
In article <Dec.11.22.21.31.1990.28193@athos.rutgers.edu> vm0t+@andrew.cmu.edu (Vincent Paul Mulhern) writes: > The faith comes first. If it's the other way, then that >criminal should be in hell and all the pharisees should not have been >rebuked for anything. They had the works down pat. No faith in God, >though. And we all know what Jesus had to say about that. The pharisees did NOT have the works down pat. Christ criticises them precisely for this. He criticises them for hypocrisy in forgetting the spirit of the law, and thus rendering it a lifeless ritual. He does NOT criticise the pharisees for lack of faith. They were people with a deep faith in the Jewish interpretation of God but they allowed this faith to become dry and they suffered from complacency and pride in the belief that they were "saved". I read the scripture usually quoted in defence of "justification by faith alone" as a warning not to let the ritual overshadow the deeper meaning (which reduces to the essentials of love of God and love of neighbour). What worries me about this whole justification by faith alone, is that it ends up as justification by one particular work. You are saying that because at one stage you uttered some appropriate words such as "Jesus is Lord", and felt at that time you really meant it, you are saved, that's it, full stop, nothing more to worry about. This is what I was getting at when I criticised you rather sharply in an earlier message. It is a bit like saying that someone is perfectly married because once on a nice sunny day he said "I love you" and meant it. We can all feel good during intense moments of love, but a marriage is not just made of these, but also of the day to day good works we do for our partner. The "I love you" is necessary, but not sufficient. Matthew Huntbach
kutz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Kenneth J. Kutz) (12/24/90)
In article <Dec.16.22.32.42.1990.23997@athos.rutgers.edu>, dragon!cms@gatech.edu writes: Cindy Smith writes: > Thus, while our good works do not save us, but > rather our faith, our good works are nonetheless essential to our > salvation, since without them we have demonstrated our lack of faith. Then later in the post writes: > Attaining salvation, > "getting to heaven," is the result but not the goal of doing good works... These two sentences, after careful reading contradict themselves. The first sentence says "good works do not save us" but are natural outpouring of true faith which I agree with. (I do disagree that good works are essential to salvation but rather are a RESULT of salvation). The second sentence says "attaining salvation...is the result...of doing good works". Paul and others clearly say good works do not save us: TI2 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, The confusion in Cindy's post is the result of the following theme that prevails throughout it: > Repentence is a good work. and again we see: > This is why the first thing Jesus taught after his baptism in the > river Jordan was, "Repent [a good work], for the kingdom of God is at How can God save us "not according to our good works" (2 Tim 1:9) and repentance (which is present at salvation) be a good work that we do? If repentance is a "good work" that originates in man, then 2 Tim 1:9 is wrong. The question we have to ask is, does repentance originate in man? Can man take the credit for repentance as a "good work"? ACT 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. ACT 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified Go d, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. TI2 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; We see from Scripture itself that the truth of 2 Tim 1:9 is preserved. Repentance originates with God and is a gift granted to us. It is not something we drum up in our flesh. REMEMBER: ROM 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. -- Kenneth J. Kutz Internet kutz@andy.bgsu.edu Systems Programmer BITNET KUTZ@ANDY University Computer Services UUCP ...!osu-cis!bgsuvax!kutz Bowling Green State Univ. US Mail 238 Math Science, BG OH 43403
kutz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Kenneth J. Kutz) (12/24/90)
In article <Dec.19.04.25.16.1990.27992@athos.rutgers.edu>, mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) writes: > I read the scripture usually quoted in defence of > "justification by faith alone" as a warning not to let the > ritual overshadow the deeper meaning (which reduces to the > essentials of love of God and love of neighbour). You certainly have the right to read them that way but that's not what they say. God will hold us accountable if we take words from the pages of Scripture, spin and jumble them around in the air as they travel from the page to our brain, until they mean something that they don't say. > What worries me about this whole justification by faith alone, > is that it ends up as justification by one particular work. You > are saying that because at one stage you uttered some > appropriate words such as "Jesus is Lord", and felt at that > time you really meant it, you are saved, that's it, full stop, > nothing more to worry about. This is what I was getting at when > I criticised you rather sharply in an earlier message. Oh my. I'm seeing more and more misunderstanding about what salvation is (and isn't) on the net lately. First off, salvation is not obtained by a "work of the flesh". Is this too basic to be grasped? God does it. No one says "Jesus is Lord" and means it but by the Spirit of God. We can take no credit for our salvation, if it is by works it is no longer grace. > It is a bit like saying that someone is perfectly married > because once on a nice sunny day he said "I love you" and meant > it. We can all feel good during intense moments of love, but a > marriage is not just made of these, but also of the day to day > good works we do for our partner. The "I love you" is > necessary, but not sufficient. Oh my again. Does biblical love have *anything* to do with "feeling good". There are three Greek words for love. Agape, the love that a husband and wife share is not a conditional love based on feelings. It is unconditional love based on an act of the will. It IS sufficient to one day say "I agape you". Agape produces the day to day works. So does true saving faith. Saving faith and agape love do not have their origin in man. That is why they both last. Both have their origin with God and of course we both know "Everything that God does lasts forever" (Eccl 3:14). -- Kenneth J. Kutz Internet kutz@andy.bgsu.edu Systems Programmer BITNET KUTZ@ANDY University Computer Services UUCP ...!osu-cis!bgsuvax!kutz Bowling Green State Univ. US Mail 238 Math Science, BG OH 43403
cms@gatech.edu (01/03/91)
[In a discussion between Cindy Smith and Kenneth Kutz, Kenneth was concerned about Cindy's statement >> Attaining salvation, >> "getting to heaven," is the result but not the goal of doing good works... because it seemed to contradict their agreed position that good words do not save us. He attributes the confusion to Cindy's idea >> Repentence is a good work. --clh] Repentence is a good work. The confusion in your post is the result of considering repentence something other than a good work. Clearly, good works mean nothing unless our good works are cleansed by the blood of the Lamb. Yet how can the cleansing blood of Jesus wash us unless we present good works to be cleansed? How can our souls be cleansed unless we perform the good work of repentence? As Jesus said, "The good person draws forth goodness from the good treasure of his heart, the evil person draws forth evil from the evil treasure of his heart." When we allow Jesus to work within us, we bring forth goodness from the good treasure of our hearts. Until you understand this, you will not understand Christianity or its underlying faith in the God of our salvation. > and again we see: > >> This is why the first thing Jesus taught after his baptism in the >> river Jordan was, "Repent [a good work], for the kingdom of God is at > > How can God save us "not according to our good works" (2 Tim 1:9) and > repentance (which is present at salvation) be a good work that we do? > If repentance is a "good work" that originates in man, then 2 Tim 1:9 > is wrong. The question we have to ask is, does repentance originate > in man? Can man take the credit for repentance as a "good work"? > ... > We see from Scripture itself that the truth of 2 Tim 1:9 is preserved. > Repentance originates with God and is a gift granted to us. It is > not something we drum up in our flesh. Faith also originates with God and is a gift granted to us. "It is not something we drum up in our flesh." Acts 15:9, "He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts. Why, then, are you now putting God to the test by placing on the shoulders of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear? On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they." Paul is here refusing to impose the Mosaic law on the Gentile believers based on the Holy Spirit being received by Christians regardless of their adoption of the Mosaic law. Peter reaffirms that we have all been given an invitation to salvation through faith in the power of Christ. This faith, again, is a gift from God. Acts 20:21, "I earnestly bore witness for both Jews and Greeks to repentance before God and to faith in our Lord Jesus." Paul didn't preach about faith in Jesus and grace in a vacuum; Paul preached to Felix "about faith in Christ Jesus. But as he [Paul] spoke about righteousness and self-restraint and the coming judgment, Felix became frightened...." Romans 4:13, "It was not through the Torah that the promise was made to Abraham and his descendants that he would inherit the world, but through the righteousness that comes form faith. For if those who adhere to the Torah are the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the Torah produces wrath; but where there is no Torah, neither is there violation. For this reason, it depends on faith, so that it may be a gift, and the promise may be guaranteed to all his descendants, not to those who only adhere to the Torah but to those who follow the faith of Abraham, who is the father of all of us, as it is written, 'I have made you father of many nations.'" So, you see, again, faith is a gift from God, and we are saved by faith and not by works, but, also, again, our faith is credited as our righteousness, and the way we know we have faith is in our demonstration of good works (repentence, etc.). Romans 10:5, Paul contrasts the righteousness that comes from Torah, and the righteousness that comes from faith. Christ here is the goal of the Torah, the true meaning of the Mosaic code, which cannot be understood in a vacuum, that is to say, neither outside the culture of Israel nor the Messiah. I think it's a mistake to always translate "Torah" as "law." If you translate "Torah" as "Bible" you get a different flavor in a lot of these passages. "Law" is a secular term that can cause some confusion in trying to understand the text. Let's try Romans 10:5 in this way, "Moses writes about the righteousness that comes from the Bible, 'The one who does these things will live by them.' But the righteousness that comes from faith says, 'Do not say in your heart, 'Who will go up into heaven?' (that is, to bring Christ down) or 'Who will go down into the abyss' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? 'The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart' (that is, the word of faith that we preach), for, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." As Jesus said, "It isn't what goes into your mouth that makes you unclean, rather it is what comes out of your mouth that makes you unclean." So, Jesus said that an action on your part (a bad work) can make you unclean. Paul here says that an action on your part (a good work), that is, confessing Jesus Christ is Lord, which action comes from your faith, will bring you salvation. Probably we're arguing semantics again, which, in my opinion, was unfortunately what much of Reformation disputes were about. "Faith not works" is a another god that some people worship without knowing or studying why they believe it. Paul didn't say "Faith not works," he simply contrasted the two in a way that some other authors contrasted "soul and spirit," which, as you may know, may be contrasted but not separated. So faith and works. > REMEMBER: > ROM 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace > is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: > otherwise work is no more work. Paul is speaking here of the remnant of Israel that has _rejected_ Christ. Let's give the full context: Romans 11:1, "I ask, then, has God rejected his people? Of course not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 'Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have torn down your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.' But what is God's response to him? 'I have left for myself seven thousand men who have not knelt to Baal.' So also at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if by grace, it is no longer because of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. What then? What Israel was seeking it did not attain, but the elect attained it; the rest were hardened." He goes on to discuss the salvation brought to the Gentiles by their transgression. The remnant was chosen by grace, not because their merited the choosing. Thus, although the Jews have been unfaithful to God by their rejection of God's Messiah, God nonetheless remains faithful to them. The failure of the Jews to believe in Christ is a "warning," my notes say, "to be on guard against any semblance of anti-Jewish arrogance, that is, failure to recognize their total dependence on divine grace." We are completely dependent on divine grace. As mentioned earlier, our good works must be touched by the sacrifice of Christ, or they have no merit, since our only merit is in Christ. One might say we are sanctified in the Mass when our sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving touches the sacrifice of Christ and is offered to God which God then gives to us in the form of the Bread of Heaven and the Cup of Salvation. Romans 1:17 says it best: "For in [the Gospel] is revealed the righteousness of God from faith to faith; as it is written, 'The one who is righteous by faith will live.'" Obviously, you must be righteous by faith; righteousness by means other than faith will do you no good. Thus, if one performs a work that results in good, it is not considered a "good work" unless the work came "from the good treasure of your heart," that is to say, you performed the good work because of your love for God. As my notes say, "Faith is the gift of the holy Spirit and denotes acceptance of salvation as God's righteousness, that is, God's gift of a renewed relationship in forgiveness and power for a new life. Faith is response to God's claim on people and their destiny." > Kenneth J. Kutz Internet kutz@andy.bgsu.edu I'd love to have responded more fully to your Scripture citations but, as it happens, I have to go to Bethel Bible study in a few minutes....:-) -- Sincerely, Cindy Smith _///_ // SPAWN OF A JEWISH _///_ // _///_ // <`)= _<< CARPENTER _///_ //<`)= _<< <`)= _<< _///_ // \\\ \\ \\ _\\\_ <`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ <`)= _<< >IXOYE=('> \\\ \\ \\\ \\_///_ // // /// _///_ // _///_ // emory!dragon!cms <`)= _<< _///_ // <`)= _<< <`)= _<< \\\ \\<`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\\ \\ A Real Live Catholic in Georgia Although not a Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's court, I am: A Real Live Southern Catholic in the Anglican Communion.
gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) (01/15/91)
In article <Dec.19.04.25.16.1990.27992@athos.rutgers.edu> mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) writes: > >They were people with a deep faith in the Jewish interpretation >of God but they allowed this faith to become dry and they >suffered from complacency and pride in the belief that they >were "saved". Always a danger, Matt. >I read the scripture usually quoted in defence of >"justification by faith alone" as a warning not to let the >ritual overshadow the deeper meaning (which reduces to the >essentials of love of God and love of neighbour). I'm going to make an assumption that you are referring to Ephesians 2:8, 9. And certainly this can be taken as a part of what the apostle would have us to learn. But I think more importantly we should come away with the understanding that salvation is the work of God, not of humanity. God provides all that is necessary for our salvation. And because it is God's work, we can have confidence in its eternality. >What worries me about this whole justification by faith alone, >is that it ends up as justification by one particular work. You >are saying that because at one stage you uttered some >appropriate words such as "Jesus is Lord", and felt at that >time you really meant it, you are saved, that's it, full stop, >nothing more to worry about. This is what I was getting at when >I criticised you rather sharply in an earlier message. Actually, Matt, there are very few Christians that I know who would say that accepting and professing "Jesus is Lord" is the end all and be all for our Faith. Through salvation, the new birth, we make the commitment to follow Jesus Christ and to do as He wishes. And what does He wish us to do? The works of faith that are enumerated in the holy writ, i.e., feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, caring for the widows and orphans, witnessing and making disciples, and much, much more. So while I believe that our salvation is through God's grace by faith, which He gives to us, I do not believe that we can sit back and rest upon our "laurels." And there a number of folks here on this group who would say much the same thing -- the new birth is only the beginning. >It is a bit like saying that someone is perfectly married >because once on a nice sunny day he said "I love you" and meant >it. We can all feel good during intense moments of love, but a >marriage is not just made of these, but also of the day to day >good works we do for our partner. The "I love you" is >necessary, but not sufficient. Isn't it great that we don't have to depend on weak human emotion or faith!? Our salvation is dependent upon the eternally complete and sufficient work of God through Jesus Christ. Nothing human can grant to us eternal anything, except damnation. Storming the walls of Heaven by human power and faith won't get anyone one fraction of an inch up the wall. However, why try to climb the wall under our own power and faith when God has graciously opened the Gate for us and provided all that we need to enter through that Gate? En Agape, Gene