cms@gatech.edu (01/03/91)
I'm not sure I've made myself clear in my postings on the "faith and works" perennial question. Let me explain by way of a friend's illustration, an Anglican from the Church of England who is a fellow parishioner of mine in the Episcopal Church of the United States. Imagine two chairs in a room. God is seated in one chair; you are seated in the other chair. The two chairs are facing each other (you and God are talking to each other). Whenever you sin, you turn your chair around and face the other direction (you turn away from God). Repentence is when you turn your chair back around and once again face God. You must perform the action of turning around to face God. We are saved not because we turn around to face God, although this is an essential part of the process, but rather because when we do turn around to face God, God is still there, God is still facing us, God has not turned his back on us. Luther's major problem was in totally separating faith and works in a way that Paul never intended. Faith and works are inextricably intertwined. Paul's message, that we are saved by faith and not by works, was simply to hammer home that works are an essential part of the salvific process, but the real reason we are saved is because, as noted above, when we do perform the good work of repentence, God is there to accept our sorrow for our sins and desire to do good works in the future as a sign of our faith. Without God, good works mean nothing. Without good works, faith is as dead as a body without a spirit. -- Sincerely, Cindy Smith _///_ // SPAWN OF A JEWISH _///_ // _///_ // <`)= _<< CARPENTER _///_ //<`)= _<< <`)= _<< _///_ // \\\ \\ \\ _\\\_ <`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ <`)= _<< >IXOYE=('> \\\ \\ \\\ \\_///_ // // /// _///_ // _///_ // emory!dragon!cms <`)= _<< _///_ // <`)= _<< <`)= _<< \\\ \\<`)= _<< \\\ \\ \\\ \\ GO AGAINST THE FLOW! \\\ \\ A Real Live Catholic in Georgia Although not a Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's court, I am: A Real Live Southern Catholic in the Anglican Communion.
math1h3@jetson.uh.edu (01/15/91)
In article <Jan.3.04.27.58.1991.14510@athos.rutgers.edu>, dragon!cms@gatech.edu writes: > > Luther's major problem was in totally separating faith and works in a > way that Paul never intended. Faith and works are inextricably > intertwined. Paul's message, that we are saved by faith and not by > works, was simply to hammer home that works are an essential part of > the salvific process, but the real reason we are saved is because, as > noted above, when we do perform the good work of repentence, God is > there to accept our sorrow for our sins and desire to do good works in > the future as a sign of our faith. Without God, good works mean > nothing. Without good works, faith is as dead as a body without a > spirit. I think Cindy is mirepresenting Luther here, or at least Lutheranism. What we believe is that works are a neccessary result of salvation. They cannot of themselves contribute to our salvation, for salvation is entirely God's work. So works and faith are inseparable, except that we are saved on the basis of faith alone. I think this captures Pauls meaning in Romans 3:28 "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the law" and Ephesians 2:8,9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast" and then the result of faith, Ephesians 2:10: "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran
gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) (01/15/91)
In article <Jan.3.04.27.58.1991.14510@athos.rutgers.edu> dragon!cms@gatech.edu writes: > > Luther's major problem was in totally separating faith and works in a >way that Paul never intended. Faith and works are inextricably >intertwined. Paul's message, that we are saved by faith and not by >works, was simply to hammer home that works are an essential part of >the salvific process, but the real reason we are saved is because, as >noted above, when we do perform the good work of repentence, God is >there to accept our sorrow for our sins and desire to do good works in >the future as a sign of our faith. Without God, good works mean >nothing. Without good works, faith is as dead as a body without a >spirit. Cindy, I have a problem with the idea that any part of salvation depends upon human works. Let me share some of my thoughts on this with you. The big problem that I see is that many people want some sort of cooperative effort between God and man. This is a doctrinal position within a number of denominations, such as the Roman Catholics. (And this is not a slam at Roman Catholics nor any other group.) I have a serious problem with this view that man somehow cooperates with God in salvation. I see this as human pride in operation. After studying the Bible for many years now, I have yet to find anything pertaining to salvation that leads me to believe that mankind has anything to do with its own salvation. Let me personalize this. Nothing in Gene Gross' life could be in any manner construed as being worthy of cooperating with God in my own salvation. For me to think otherwise is foolish human pride. I take no pride in my own salvation. If I have anything to be proud of regarding salvation, it is pride in my Lord who so freely gives of this gift. He calls men and women to Himself through the power of the Holy Spirit. If our salvation rested upon anything other than God's work, then we'd not have assurance of our salvation. Because the work of God is complete, lacking nothing, and eternally sufficient, I can draw strength and assurance that my salvation is eternal and secure. However, human works are not complete, lacking nothing, nor eternally sufficient. If my hope was based on human effort or work, even in part, then I would have no grounds for confidence in the salvation offered by the Gospel. For years, I had heard about the Gospel. I read all the passages that people typically share with others, such as John 3:16. But without the Holy Spirit opening my eyes, I could not see myself as God sees me. And because of this I could never truly repent no matter how much human faith I had in what was written. Such repentance does not lead to salvation. It leads to legalism and extreme penitential views (self-flaggelation, crawling on knees for miles to a shrine, etc.). It is a form of false humility and repentance that can win the approbation of man, but never the approbation of God. But once my eyes were opened and I saw the real me from God's point of view, there was only one response possible -- total commitment and unconditional surrender and repentance. This is the real salvation, which is what I believe that the writers were trying to get across to us by using the Greek pistis/pisteuo (which we translate as believe or faith). Most of the people are unaware of the Greek. In John 3:16 or Eph. 2:8 where the Greek is rendered "believe" and "faith", respectively, I would offer the following as a better interpretation "committed-believe" or "committed-faith." The Greek there is "pisteuo" and conveys much more than a mere mental movement. It conveys the sense of a complete commitment toward, in this case, God. How could it be otherwise once our eyes are opened by the Holy Spirit? How can anyone say that it is not a matter of commitment? Because many are unaware of this, they assume that belief is human belief, which can change. As a human, I can believe that a Ford is better than a Chevy. But then down the road, I can change my mind and believe that the Chevy is superior to the Ford, or that the Chrysler is superior to Ford and Chevy. But this is not what the Bible is talking about concerning salvation. And this is not understood by the carnal mind, but rather the spiritual mind of the believer. It is this spiritual understanding that shines so clearly when the three Hebrew men refused to bow before the king's idol. They would prefer death knowing the conclusion of all things. And it is this that shines so clearly from the great martyrs of our Faith. We are committed even to the loss of our own lives, for what value is there in living without Jesus Christ? Were human faith of this nature, no one would ever change their minds about Chevy or Ford. ;-) So then, in the package that we call salvation, we get all the things that are necessary to our eternal salvation. The Holy Spirit opens up our eyes while embueing us with committed-faith. We understand the truth of the Gospel and who we are, and what we are. This leads us, in that brief moment, to true repentance. And God then wipes the slate clean. And if this were all that He did, how wonderful and miraculous! But that isn't all, He also adopts us into His family, turns the rebels into His own sons and daughters (Rom. 8:14-17). Now that is something that still marvels me today. He provides a means for the rebels to become reconciled to Him; He forgives them of their sins; He then brings them into His family. Is there anything greater!? So, I say that salvation is by God's grace through His gift of faith (committed-faith), and not of works (cooperative or otherwise) of any sort related to man. This committed-faith leads to true repentance and reconciliation. And because our salvation is so totally dependent upon God, I have absolute reason for assurance in the security of my salvation for eternity. But don't just take my word for it. Look for a moment at John 1:12, 13. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (KJV) It is not of natural generation, that is, it isn't biological -- not of blood. A person may be born of Christian parents, but this does not constitute him a Christian. It is not of self-determination -- will of the flesh. None of us could decide to be born physically, and none of us can produce the "new birth" by our own efforts. It is not of human mediation -- nor of the will of man. No human being, however eminent his ecclesiastical position, can impart salvation, or the "new birth." All the rites and ceremonies of any and all denominations can never produce salvation. In John 3:4, 6, we find that the new birth of salvation does not encompass a physical change. It is not a social or geographical change. We are not translated to heaven suddenly upon committed-belief, but we continue upon the earth, but now to please the Lord Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 7:20-24; Col. 3:22-24). It is not based upon an intellectual apprehension of what it is. A person can be highly educated religiously and even ordained to the ministry, but yet remain unsaved. They know theoretically that it is necessary, yet know nothing of it by experience. It is not an evolutionary process. It is not a gradual development of some germ of spiritual life within (Eph. 2:1). It is written that sinners are spiritually dead. Life cannot be developed where it does not exist! It is not a matter of reformation or self-improvement. It is not a change of manners but of the person. It is a spiritual change (John 3:8). And this can only be brought about by God (John 1:13). However, I'm constrained to point out with James that faith without works is dead. By this I mean that the outward evidence of the inward, spiritual reality of our new birth is manifested in the works of faith, which includes the fruit of the Spirit. If the works are not there, we need to examine ourselves as to why not. There are a number of reasons why a new born babe in Christ might not be demonstrating outwardly the inward reality of new birth -- the biggest one that I've come across is that they have never been taught otherwise. They've made the first step through the power of the Holy Spirit, but they've had noone to disciple them in the things of the Faith so that they can follow Christ. Still, their salvation is secure, not because they've done something, but because God has done it all! En Agape, Gene Gross