kriz@skat.usc.edu (Dennis Kriz) (12/19/90)
I just wanted to underscore this point, and ask for comments: We talk about freedom of speech and freedom of religion. Yet in this country for the last generation, we have been forced to officially venerate Santa Claus, the Christmas tree and other symbols determined by the courts to be "non-offensive" ... even though when forcibly removed of religious root ... they offend many. dennis kriz@skat.usc.edu
kriz@skat.usc.edu (Dennis Kriz) (01/03/91)
In article <18967@hydra.gatech.EDU> gs26@prism.gatech.EDU (Glenn R. Stone) writes: > >I was sent Dennis' original article that started this brewhaha; I'm glad >I waited to read this one..... > >In <28937@usc> kriz@skat.usc.edu (Dennis Kriz) writes: >>We talk about freedom of speech and freedom of religion. Yet in this >>country for the last generation, we have been forced to officially >>venerate Santa Claus, the Christmas tree and other symbols determined >>by the courts to be "non-offensive" ... even though when forcibly >>removed of religious root ... they offend many. > >Nobody's FORCING anybody to DO anything. But they are. The courts have declared that Santa is a "non-offensive" symbol of a "secular" Christ-mas. There is no discreet way therefore of escaping him in places like the public schools, etc. By anyone. This is what a Jewish group in LA has protested. What is ironic is that there is a good chance that Jewish religious protest (that Santa is still too closely tied to "Christian symbol") will succeed in driving Santa out of the public schools. It is ironic because the question of how Christians view the modern-day Santa who has been used in this past generation to hijack and rape a Christian feast day is not considered. But Santa is termed by definition to be "non-offensive" ... so why the cribbing? >The courts are PROHIBITING some things, but that's a little different. Right now, the courts have simply taken Christmas hostage. If we are talking about providing a secular feast day to celebrate the "giving of gifts", then we should begin by renaming the holiday and moving it off of Dec 25th. Macy's ultimately could give damn if Santa comes on Dec 25th or on Dec 21st (after-all that's what we keep hearing ... that the "multi- culturalness" of "Christmas" is in its "actual celebration" the Winter Solstice), or on perhaps the 4th Monday of December (as we do with virtually every other State holiday). There is nothing *sacred* about Dec. 25th ... **except** in the (western) Christian tradition. Keeping a secularized "Sharing of Gifts Day" (as part of a greater "Days of Winter" season) on Dec. 25th, is simply a power-play (the more so with keeping it being called "Christmas"), of State showing Church "who is boss" In the current scheme of things, Santa is something of a sugar-coated Stalin figure -- Ceasar in red with white trimming, a big nose and a funny hat. >YOU may promote your religion any way you like.... but, IMHO, the state >should neither promote nor discourage any religion at all. EXACTLY ... so let the State create a "multi-cultural" holiday of its own around that time (or perhaps not even around that time ... we could have a summer Santa come from the jungles of Brazil ... nice ecological feel to that idea huh? "Kids help Santa keep his summer home..."). And leave Christmas alone. If we want to celebrate winter ... there are plenty of *better* days/ways of doing it than doing it on Dec 25th (ie Dec 21st or the 4th Monday of December ... as I pointed out already). > >There is a big difference in a nation of religious freedom and a nation >where you are allowed to do what you want privately but somebody's pet >"One True Way" is officially promoted... But a "True" "politically correct" way is EXACTLY what the State is promoting now. You have to "love" Santa now. The schools are free to teach the Santa gospel to their pupils. And there is no defense, because the State has declared it "non-offensive" >The former is what, thank {insert appropriate name(s) here} we still have, >I think..... the latter is tantamount to the swastika Dennis alluded to, >but, time after time, what I hear Dennis' words saying he wants.... There is no reason why Christmas has to be hijacked and redefined by the State to promote "multiculturalness" ... A State sponsored "multicultural holiday" falling not necessarily on the 25th but around that time (if even that is necessary) would work just fine ... and preserve the integrity of the Christian religious feast day (for Christians to celebrate in peace without bothering anybody ... as Yom Kippur is celebrated for instance). dennis kriz@skat.usc.edu
jclark@sdcc6@ucsd.edu (John Clark) (01/09/91)
In article <Jan.3.04.37.57.1991.14662@athos.rutgers.edu> kriz@skat.usc.edu (Dennis Kriz) writes: .... >view the modern-day Santa who has been used in this past generation to hijack >and rape a Christian feast day is not considered. But Santa is termed by >definition to be "non-offensive" ... so why the cribbing? Where do you think Christmas came from? Where is there any mention of a Jewish Holiday in this period of time in the Bible? The Christians stole it from the pagans, so what goes around comes around. -- John Clark jclark@ucsd.edu
hetyei@athena.mit.edu (Gabor Hetyei) (01/15/91)
In article <Jan.9.23.35.52.1991.21284@athos.rutgers.edu>, reedj@hplsla.lsid.hp.com (Reed Jacobsen) writes: |> Somehow it bothers me when - even at the Church Christmas social - we |> follow up a nice spiritual portrayal of the nativity with Santa charging |> in to pass out goody bags. I like both traditions - but somehow juxtaposing |> them that closely makes me cringe of sacrilege. I am sorry if I repeat something that has already been stated before (I just started to read this thread) but I would like to stress that the tradition of Santa bringing gifts at Christmas, is typically an Anglo-Saxon tradition. As far as I know the same tradition holds in England. Meanwhile in Germany, in Hungary and at lot of other places, the feast of Santa Claus is the 6th of December, the day of Saint Nicholas according to Catholic Calendar. Saint Nicho- las was a bishop, who helped the poor by literally "smuggling in" his gifts into their dwellings.-the same way as Santa brings his gifts to the children. (He was not climbing through the chimney though :-)- BTW this climbing through the chimney busyness has also been invented by the Anglo-Saxons, I guess. ) His most famous good deed was helping a father out with money so that his daughter could get married - and saving the girl from becoming immoral. It surprised me always that protestants, usually very sensitive about cult of saints otherwise, also propagate the cult of Saint Nicholas. Meanwhile, knowing the legend of Saint Nicholas, I always considered Santa as a very Christian figure. No wonder that in communist Hungary a "Father Winter" has been invented by the authorities, in order to avoid the allusion to Saint Nicholas. I might be wrong, but I think Saint Nicholas was a bishop in an Eastern Church- so it is not surprising that the more West we go, the less people know about the real origins of Santa.(I recall that French have a Pere Noel= Father Christmas, which is also a distortion of the original Santa Claus- tradition.) Gabor Hetyei