stevep@cadence.com (Steve Peterson) (12/06/90)
In article <2974@unccvax.uncc.edu>, elizabeth s tallant writes: |...the Bible teaches that once a person |has salvation, that salvation can never be taken away. A person who has |salvation is a Christian, and most Christians love God, therefore, they |do not believe that there is any chance of them ever going to hell. Many people that I have talked with in the past have mentioned that because they have "accepted Jesus" they are thus saved and by extension "Always saved". I was just wondering how to reconcile this idea with these scriptures ..... Matt 24:13 "He who endures to the end will be saved" So a person's final salvation is not determined at the moment that he begins to put faith in Jesus. Phil 2:12 "As you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." This was addressed to "the saints" or "holy ones", at Philippi, as stated in Phil 1:1. Paul urged them not to be overly confident but to realize that their final salvation was not yet assured. Heb 10:26, 27 "If we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth,ther no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries." Thus the Bible does not go along with the idea that no matter what sins a person may commit after he is "saved" he will not lose his salvation. It encourages faithfulness. Also, Heb 6:26,27 is very interesting...... Best Regards...... Steve Peterson ---- stevep@cadence.com or ...!uunet!cadence!stevep
wagner@karazm.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) (12/11/90)
In article <Dec.6.04.23.41.1990.24057@athos.rutgers.edu> stevep@cadence.com (Steve Peterson) writes: >Many people that I have talked with in the past have mentioned that because >they have "accepted Jesus" they are thus saved and by extension "Always >saved". >I was just wondering how to reconcile this idea with these scriptures ..... >Matt 24:13 "He who endures to the end will be saved" > So a person's final salvation is not determined at the moment that he > begins to put faith in Jesus. Actually, "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will." "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,.." "Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's posession--to the praise of his glory." A person's salvation was predestined when he was 'chosen before the creation of the world.' Those who are predestined persevere in their faith until death. HOWEVER, the JW's teach that we must keep persevering AFTER death, for we will be resurrected only to be tested more during a Millenium. (See my reply to Steve's article, Re: JW's Faith vs. Works, in talk.religion.misc) (Why does he post in both newsgroups? Do I have to look for every newsgroup he's posted in, and make the same reply?) It is possible to lose faith, see the parable of the sower. Further, we can't know who is elected. So while I don't subscribe to the usual notion of 'Once Saved Always Saved', I certainly believe that 'Once Elected, Always Elected'. >Phil 2:12 "As you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but >much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." > > This was addressed to "the saints" or "holy ones", at Philippi, as > stated in Phil 1:1. Paul urged them not to be overly confident but to > realize that their final salvation was not yet assured. > >Heb 10:26, 27 "If we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the >truth,ther no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of >judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries." > > Thus the Bible does not go along with the idea that no matter what > sins a person may commit after he is "saved" he will not lose his > salvation. It encourages faithfulness. What Steve says here doesn't seem that bad. but there is a serpent lurking here. The NIV has "If we deliberately *keep on* sinning..." The translation he quotes gives the false impression that if we deliberately sin once, we are lost. Can Steve honestly say he has never deliberately sinned? (since he 'received the knowledge of the truth', that is). If we read 10:25: "Let us not give up meeting together, as *some are in the habit of doing*,..." and v. 29: "How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of Grace?" This pretty well defines what it means to 'deliberately keep on sinning'. It means to show utter contempt for Christ, the holy spirit, and the sacrifice of Christ (the blood of the covenant). There is no more sacrifice for sin, if we hold Christ's sacrifice in contempt, that is, we reject it. What is spoken of here is the 'Sin against the Holy Spirit', also, the 'sin that leads to death', 1 John 5:16. For parallel passages see Hebrews 6:4-8, Mark 3:29. The real sin is losing faith. God's promise, "whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" is still sure, and the sins are still paid for. But those who utterly reject the Holy Spirit, have no faith, and also reject the forgiveness that is still offered them. For such people, John said, we should not even pray, because they will not return to faith. Needless to say, in our exercise of church discipline, we must be extremely cautious about saying that someone has sinned against the Holy Spirit in this way. Even when we excommunicate someone, we still hope and pray that they will repent -- see 1 & 2 Corinthians for a case of a man excommunicated for incest, who repented and was accepted back into the fellowship of the church. >Also, Heb 6:26,27 is very interesting...... I don't doubt this, but I can't find it in my Bible! :-) David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran My opinions and beliefs on this matter are disclaimed by The University of Houston. [I would appreciate a bit more charity here. It's fairly common to have parallel discussions on t.r.m and s.r.c. I doubt he's trying to hide anything from you. While I agree that the NIV translation of Heb 10:26 is the more accurate, I'm not sure it solves the problem. Steve's concern seems to be that you are allowing for people who are "saved" but do not live lives of repentance. Interpreting Heb 10:26 clarifies things, but still may not go to the heart of the matter. At least in the Calvinist tradition, there was an attempt to hold both the concept that someone God had chosen could not lose salvation, and the fact that people obviously fall away from the Church and salvation. The way to do this is very simple: since a person whom God has chosen to bestow faith on will live as a repentant sinner, those who do not obviously are not chosen. Only God is able to see into the human heart. There may be people who give every external appearance of being "saved", but fall away. These people are also clearly not chosen. They are the shallow ground in which visible results spring up quickly, but do not take root. --clh]
kutz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Kenneth J. Kutz) (12/12/90)
At this moment I do not have the time to devote to this topic that I wish I had. I'm sure there are others who believe as I do that once a person has been "born again" to use Jesus' words, he will never be "unborn again" to use an unbiblical term. I believe the Scriptural evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the the eternal security of the believer. In this article I will simply respond to those passages which are used by Steve Peterson to try and show that our continued salvation is based upon continued human effort (which must raise the question, if our salvation is not acquired by works, why must it be kept by works?) In article <Dec.6.04.23.41.1990.24057@athos.rutgers.edu>, stevep@cadence.com (Steve Peterson) writes: > Many people that I have talked with in the past have mentioned that because > they have "accepted Jesus" they are thus saved and by extension "Always > saved". > I was just wondering how to reconcile this idea with these scriptures ..... > Matt 24:13 "He who endures to the end will be saved" > So a person's final salvation is not determined at the moment that he > begins to put faith in Jesus. Matt 24:13 is talking about a QUALITY associated with a saved person - continuance in the faith. Could this be any clearer than in I John 2:19? !?! "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." This is in complete agreement with Matt 24:13. Both say he that endures to the end will be saved. John expounds on that and says he that does not endure never was. > Phil 2:12 "As you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but > much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." > This was addressed to "the saints" or "holy ones", at Philippi, as > stated in Phil 1:1. Paul urged them not to be overly confident but to > realize that their final salvation was not yet assured. I believe there is a huge gulf between "work out your own salvation" and "work so your salvation continues" which is what Steve appears to be saying. With salvation comes responsiblity and work, work that should be done with fear and trembling for Christian's have a greater responsibilty that any secular job which might instill fear and trembling into us. > Heb 10:26, 27 "If we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the > truth,ther no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of > judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries." > Thus the Bible does not go along with the idea that no matter what > sins a person may commit after he is "saved" he will not lose his > salvation. It encourages faithfulness. I've written a 12 page paper on Hebrews that addresses what I consider to be a misinterpretation of much of Hebrews. Throughout this book we have many parenthetical warnings to individuals who were WITH believers (saved ones) but were not saved themselves. This of course is true of every church (the wheat and the tares) so for the writer to ignore such a population in the professing church would not be very productive for furthering the kingdom. Look at Hebrews 2:3 for example. Clearly some in this group had not been saved. This same group is addressed throughout the book of Hebrews and chapter 10:26, 27 quoted above is such a case. Notice the people above "received the knowledge of the truth". Does this make them saved? Of course not. > Also, Heb 6:26,27 is very interesting...... You probably meant Heb 6:4-6. Ask yourself if a person has been: "enlightened" (heard the truth) have "tasted of the heavenly gift" (had a taste of Christ by association), have "SHARED in the Holy Spirit" (were present amidst some miraculous movements of the Holy Spirit, NOT INDWELT by the Holy Spirit), have "TASTED the goodness of the word of God" (tasting is testing with no commitment to swallowing as Jeremiah writes) this necessitates genuine salvation. I contend not. These people heard and saw all there was to see. There was no more revelation to give. Because of that, there is nothing left for God to do for them, hence the "impossible" in verse 4. (If this teaches you can lose your salvation, it also teaches you can never get it back). I could write for days on this topic. Time does not permit. Perhaps someone else could help pick up the slack... > Best Regards...... > > Steve Peterson -- Kenneth J. Kutz Internet kutz@andy.bgsu.edu Systems Programmer BITNET KUTZ@ANDY University Computer Services UUCP ...!osu-cis!bgsuvax!kutz Bowling Green State Univ. US Mail 238 Math Science, BG OH 43403
wfg@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Frank Galneder) (12/12/90)
In soc.religion.christian, stevep@cadence.com (Steve Peterson) writes: Many people that I have talked with in the past have mentioned that because they have "accepted Jesus" they are thus saved and by extension "Always saved". I was just wondering how to reconcile this idea with these scriptures ..... Hi Steve: I would like to respond to your curiosity by addressing the Scriptures you list one at a time. I apologize for the length of this reply, but the doctrine of eternal security is not as obvious as many would like, although I do believe it is sound Biblical teaching. Please view this response as food for thought. > Matt 24:13 "He who endures to the end will be saved" > So a person's final salvation is not determined at the moment that he > begins to put faith in Jesus. I agree with R.T. Kendall's remarks concerning this passage from his book "Once saved, always saved": "I do not believe that 'saved' in this place means salvation as we have defined it in this book (i.e. to be preserved from hell; to go to heaven when you die). Sometimes the word 'saved' has a rather different meaning as in 1Tim 2:15: 'But women will be saved through childbearing-if they continue in faith, love, and holiness with propriety.' This refers to the dignity of womanhood being restored in light of Eve's sin (1Tim 2:13-14). I think 'saved' in Matt 24:13 means a miraculous deliverance after a most severe kind of tribulation and persecution. I think the term 'saved' here is used as in Jer 30:7: 'How awful that day will be! None will be like it. It will be a time of trouble for Jacob, but he will be saved out of it'. Thus, in our Lord's warning of an awful ordeal to come in Matt 24, He promised them a victorious escape from the entrapments of severe persecution." It is important to place this verse in context. The question is, who endures to the end? When one studies the book of Revelation, it is plain that God will stop the forces of nature and of evil while He seals a number of folk. Who is going to endure to the end? Those whom He seals at the beginning. Matt 24 speaks of the end of the age, so does Revelation. Those who are sealed are "saved" from great ordeals. > Phil 2:12 "As you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but > much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." > This was addressed to "the saints" or "holy ones", at Philippi, as > stated in Phil 1:1. Paul urged them not to be overly confident but to > realize that their final salvation was not yet assured. I could say quite a bit about this verse, but for the sake of brevity, I'll refrain. The best answer comes in the next verse anyway: "for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good purpose". God works out that which HE worked in you. If God has saved you, He has saved you by faith plus nothing! God does not accept any kind of good works for salvation, but after you are saved, God talks to you about your works. The salvation HE worked in you by faith is a salvation HE will work out also. See James 2:17-18.J. Vernon McGee put it this way: "Only God can see the heart; He knows our true condition. He knows if I have saving faith; He knows if you have saving faith. But your neighbor can't see your faith. The only thing he can see is the works of faith. True faith will work itself out so that the people around us will be able to tell that we are different, that we are Christians." > Heb 10:26, 27 "If we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the > truth,ther no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of > judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries." > Thus the Bible does not go along with the idea that no matter what > sins a person may commit after he is "saved" he will not lose his > salvation. It encourages faithfulness. Yikes! Be careful with this passage. If we took your approach, indeed if we went beyond what you are suggesting and took the passage at face value, it would seem to say that any deliberate sin after becoming a Christian would not be forgiven. It also suggests that once that sin took away your salvation, your salvation could not be re-gained. Do you agree with this? If this is true how can anyone be saved? To address this passage, allow me to quote Dr. Charles Stanley from his book "Eternal Security: Can you be sure": "...the Bible never makes a distinction between which sins Christ's death paid for. If there is a sacrifice for a few sins, why not a sacrifice for all sins a Christian commits? The author's (of Hebrews) point is clear: there is no more sacrifice for sins of any kind for anybody. He writes, 'But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect those who are being made holy. (Heb 10:12-14)' Jesus is out of the sacrificing business. The next time he stands up, He will assume the role of a Judge, not a Lamb. Remember, the people in the audience are primarily Jewish Christians. All their lives they had waited for a Messiah. One who would come to take away their sins. One who would establish a new covenant, a covenant so powerful that God would forget their sins forever (see Heb 10:17). Whereas we today look back to the cross for forgiveness, these men and women were in the habit of looking ahead for forgiveness. The fact that they had never seen Christ or heard Him teach would have made it especially difficult to break this habit. In keeping with his theme of Christ as Messiah, the author of Hebrews takes this opportunity to remind his audience yet again that the sacrifice they had been waiting for had already taken place. To paraphrase, 'If you willfully sin, remember that the next scheduled event is an encounter not with Christ the Savior but with Christ the Judge.' The author of Hebrews is warning his Jewish audience of the consequences of willful disobedience to Christ. They can no longer justify their sin in the light of the coming Messiah, He has already come. ...the statement 'there no longer remains any sacrifice for sins' is not meant to be negative. The writer says the same thing in verse 18 where the mood of the text is clearly positive. Also, remember that a Christian will be tried by fire at the judgement seat of Christ." > Also, Heb 6:26,27 is very interesting...... I can't find these verses in my Bible. Perhaps you meant Heb 6:4-6. This posting is very long as it is so I will post my remarks to this passage in another response. Once again, I hope these remarks will be thought provoking. In keeping with this desire, I would like to pose some questions of my own; questions I have struggled with in my study of eternal security: - If salvation wasn't permanent, why introduce the concept of adoption? Wouldn't it have been better to describe salvation in terms of a legal contract between God and man? - In 2Cor 1:21-22 Christians are said to be sealed. What is the significance of a seal that can be continually removed and re-applied? What does it really seal? - If a man or woman ends up in hell, who has at some point put their trust in Christ, doesn't that make what Jesus said to Nicodemus a lie, or at best a half-truth? - If one's salvation is not a settled issue, how can one ever be "anxious for nothing"? There is a peace, a confidence, a thankfulness, a joy that defies explanation and permeates the soul when the truth of eternal security grips an individual. I pray that Christians everywhere will study and become aware that no one will snatch them out of His hand! Again, my apologies for the length of this reply. God's richest blessings to you... Frank Galneder -------
jchale@cbnewsh.att.com (Jeffrey C Hale) (12/13/90)
In article <Dec.6.04.23.41.1990.24057@athos.rutgers.edu>, stevep@cadence.com (Steve Peterson) writes: > In article <2974@unccvax.uncc.edu>, elizabeth s tallant writes: > > |...the Bible teaches that once a person > |has salvation, that salvation can never be taken away. A person who has > |salvation is a Christian, and most Christians love God, therefore, they > |do not believe that there is any chance of them ever going to hell. > > Many people that I have talked with in the past have mentioned that because > they have "accepted Jesus" they are thus saved and by extension "Always > saved". > > I was just wondering how to reconcile this idea with these scriptures ..... > > Matt 24:13 "He who endures to the end will be saved" > > So a person's final salvation is not determined at the moment that he > begins to put faith in Jesus. Let's look at the context of Jesus' words: He is in the midst of a discourse about the end of the age, which begins in 24:4 and ends at 25:46. Start reading the passage at 24:4 and you will see better what Jesus means about "standing firm to the end"!! What great faith those people will have who withstand the persecution of the "last days." I don't think it's appropriate to generalize Jesus' statement to anyone and everyone, considering we're not at the end of the age yet. > > Phil 2:12 "As you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but > much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." > > This was addressed to "the saints" or "holy ones", at Philippi, as > stated in Phil 1:1. Paul urged them not to be overly confident but to > realize that their final salvation was not yet assured. > Again, let's look at context! Verse 14 is an explanation of vv. 12 and 13: "for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good purpose." When Paul tells these believers to work out their salvation, he is referring to the results of their salvation, the ramifications of their salvation, namely, God's purposes being realized through them! This is exactly analogous to Eph. 2:8-10, in which Paul explains quite clearly that salvation is ONLY by faith alone, but that believers DO HAVE A PURPOSE: "to do good works that God has prepared." Nowhere does Paul indicate that a believer's SALVATION is in question; however, a believer's subsequent USEFULNESS is always in question, requiring a daily decision to obey God and to follow Him. > Heb 10:26, 27 "If we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the > truth,ther no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of > judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries." > > Thus the Bible does not go along with the idea that no matter what > sins a person may commit after he is "saved" he will not lose his > salvation. It encourages faithfulness. > I'd like to talk to a person who has not "sinned deliberately" after accepting Christ as Lord and Savior. 1 John 1:8 is talking about believers as well as unbelievers!!! Anybody out there claim to be without sin? I think that Steve's further interpretation of these verses would be interesting. > Also, Heb 6:26,27 is very interesting...... > > Best Regards...... > > Steve Peterson > > ---- > stevep@cadence.com or ...!uunet!cadence!stevep How about a few other verses to consider? 1 John 5:13 : John explains that the purpose of his letter was to inspire confidence in the believers that they did, in fact, have eternal life, without any doubt whatsoever. "I write these things to you that believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life." John 5:24 : A pretty convincing picture of what happens to a person who believes in Jesus Christ: "I tell you the truth: Whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." Romans 10:9,10: A straight-forward explanation of all that is required to be saved and an iron-clad guarantee of salvation if we follow the "formula" : "That IF you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," AND believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, (then) YOU WILL BE SAVED. Verse 10 goes on to clarify what it means to confess and believe. Hey, these are some pretty clear statements of salvation! God makes it pretty clear to those who aren't trying to force their own views on what salvation should or should not be. After all, He has been gracious enough to leave even a single way for us to be restored to Him! Certainly there will be those who would see guaranteed salvation as license to sin at will. The Bible does not condone this; see Romans 6, e.g. But let's not blur the definite distinction between salvation and the subsequent growth process as a maturing Christian! Jeff Hale attmail!jchale "He saved us, not because of righteous things we have done, but because of His mercy. . ." Titus 3:5
gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) (12/13/90)
In article <Dec.6.04.23.41.1990.24057@athos.rutgers.edu> stevep@cadence.com (Steve Peterson) writes: >In article <2974@unccvax.uncc.edu>, elizabeth s tallant writes: > >|...the Bible teaches that once a person >|has salvation, that salvation can never be taken away. A person who has >|salvation is a Christian, and most Christians love God, therefore, they >|do not believe that there is any chance of them ever going to hell. > >Many people that I have talked with in the past have mentioned that because >they have "accepted Jesus" they are thus saved and by extension "Always >saved". > >I was just wondering how to reconcile this idea with these scriptures ..... I'll get to the Scriptures you quote in a moment. But first, let's look at an interesting passage. It is Jude 1. It reads as follows in the KJV (emphasis is mine) "...to them that are sanctified by God, the Father, and *preserved* in Jesus Christ, and called." Assurance is the Christian's full conviction that, through the work of Christ alone, received by faith, he is in possession of a salvation in which he will be eternally kept. This assurance rests only upon the Scripture promises to him who believes. >Matt 24:13 "He who endures to the end will be saved" > > So a person's final salvation is not determined at the moment that he > begins to put faith in Jesus. Actually, Steve, the reference is not to the salvation of the soul of the believer who endures persecution, but to his deliverance by the Lord's return. >Phil 2:12 "As you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but >much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." > > This was addressed to "the saints" or "holy ones", at Philippi, as > stated in Phil 1:1. Paul urged them not to be overly confident but to > realize that their final salvation was not yet assured. Please see my last posting on salvation. >Heb 10:26, 27 "If we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the >truth,ther no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of >judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries." > > Thus the Bible does not go along with the idea that no matter what > sins a person may commit after he is "saved" he will not lose his > salvation. It encourages faithfulness. Actually, the context is that the Jewish sacrifices have lost their efficacy. The writer is making the point that it is Christ or judgement. >Also, Heb 6:26,27 is very interesting...... This is interesting since chapter 6 only has 20 verses. ;-) You are probably referring to vss 6 and 7. These verses Heb. 6:4-8 have long been a battleground, theologically. They have been understood in various ways. The major interpretations are: 1. The warning is directed to some of the Jewish people who professed to be believers in Christ but stopped short of true faith in Him after advancing to the threshold of salvation. 2. The admonition presents a hypothetical case: *if* one could "fall away" (v. 6), it would be necessary for Christ to be crucified a second time. Obviously this will not occur (Heb. 10:12, 14); thus, to fall away is impossible. 3. The warning is directed toward believers who have fallen into sin to such an extent that they crucified to themselves the Son of God afresh (vs. 6) and are therefore disapproved and will lose their reward. 4. The warning is to those who are believers in the Lord Jesus Christ and are in danger of falling away, through unbelief or sin, and losing their salvation. The clause rendered "and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit" (vs. 4) might be paraphrased somewhat like this: "and were willingly being led toward the Holy Spirit." The warning is issued to those who have been instructed and even moved by the Holy Spirit but have never committed themselves to Christ. The entire passage turns on the word "better" in vs. 9. If all that is written in vv 1-5 were equivalent to salvation, there could be nothing better. The experiences outlined may precede and even accompany salvation, but they do not always result in salvation. Scripture abundantly affirms the Christian's eternal security; therefore, this passage must not be interpreted as teaching that believers in Christ can lose their salvation (see John 3:15, 16, 36; 10:27-30; Rom. 8:35, 37-39; Eph. 1:12-14; 4:30; Phil. 1:6; Heb. 10:12-14; 1 Pet. 1:3-5). Lastly, I would point you to Romans 8:14-17. Here the apostle makes it clear what our relationship with God is. He starts off by noting that those who are lead by the Holy Spirit are the sons of God. Next, he points us to the fact that we've received the Spirit of adoption. This fact establishes that we have a unique position. In regeneration a Christian receives the nature of a child of God; in adoption he receives the position of a son of God. The Greek is huiothesia, meaning placing as a son. Adoption refers to that work of God's grace by which He receives us as His very own children through Christ and in union with Him. The practice of legal adoption was widesporead in the ancient world. There are examples of it in the OT (Ex. 2:10; 1 Kings 11:20; Esther 2:7) and the idea is present in the description of Israel as God's son (Ex. 4:22; Hosea 11:1). In the first century under Roman law an adult wanting an heir could adopt a male, commonly of adolescent or maturer years, a custom readily transferrable to the Christian's new relationship to God. Paul makes particular use of it (Rom. 8:14-17; Gal. 4:1-7; Eph. 1:5; cf 1 John 3:1f). When we recall what we were in our sins, the thought of adoption speaks most powerfully of the magnitude of God's mercy to us. That we should be pardoned all our sin is wonder enough; but that the pardoned rebels should become God's very sons and daughters, installed within the intimacy of His own family circle, is surely wonder beyond wonder. Adoption implies that the Christian life is firstly life with God as Father (Rom. 8:15; Gal. 4:6). Both these verses speak of our using the word ABBA in address to God. This is the very word which Jesus had made His own in His prayers and which means 'my own dear Father,' or even simply 'Daddy.' Now, notice what the apostle says in verse 17 of Romans 8. He writes that we are, because of this adoption, heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ Jesus. A further aspect of the work of the Spirit of God concerns the spiritual conviction of God's people, their assurance of faith; "this is how we know that he lives in us: we know it by the Spirit he gave us" (1 John 3:24). In similar vein, Paul refers to the Holy Spirit as a "seal" (2 Cor. 1:22; Eph. 1:13; 4:30), a word in the first-century world for something which guaranteed security, such as a locking device (Matt. 27:66; Rev. 20:3). It had the allied meaning of a mark of ownership. Something of this is expressed in the Spirit's coming on Jesus at His baptism, when the Father affirmed Jesus as His own Son. It is applied to Christian experience in verses concerning the Spirit's witness with the believer (Romans 8:16; Gal. 4:6; 1 John 3:24; 4:13; 5:10). So we have assurance of our security and salvation. Subjectively, this experience of assurance consists in an inward peace of conscience concerning our standing with God, the firm persuasion that Christ's merits atone for our sins, completely, lacking nothing, and that we have been brought into light, freedom, and sonship in Christ. This subjective persuasion has an objective point of reference, the 'inward witness of the Spirit,' which is a persuasion concerning the truth and divinity of the written Scriptures centered in the Gospel of Christ. I submit, Steve, that we can know with divine assurance that we have our salvation. Further, I affirm that once we have our salvation, based upon God's sovereign work, nothing can separate us from this gift of the living God, nothing! Our failures may result in diminishing our rewards, but not our salvation. Salvation is the sovereign work of the Sovereign God of the Universe toward humanity. For His glory, Gene
stevep@uunet.uu.net (Steve Peterson) (12/14/90)
Cindy Smith points out a typo in my last post: |In article <Dec.6.04.23.41.1990.24057@athos.rutgers.edu>, stevep@cadence.com (Steve Peterson) writes: | |> Thus the Bible does not go along with the idea that no matter what |> sins a person may commit after he is "saved" he will not lose his |> salvation. It encourages faithfulness. |> |> Also, Heb 6:26,27 is very interesting...... | | Steve, I enjoyed your posting very much and agreed with it. However, |I looked up Heb 6:26,27, only to discover it isn't there! Now, there |is a Christian Rock group called Acts 29, but I don't suppose you're |referring to a rock group....I'm curious which verse you actually |intended? Very sorry for the typo, I wanted to type Heb 6:4-6 that shows that even a person anointed with God's holy spirit can lose his hope of salvation. And so, once again, the point of the post is that "Once saved, always saved" isn't really a Bible truth. Best Regards...... Steve Peterson ---- stevep@cadence.com or ...!uunet!cadence!stevep
louns@cs.washington.edu (Michael Lounsbery) (12/14/90)
In reply to: bgsuvax!kutz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Kenneth J. Kutz) You replied to many of Steve Paterson's Scriptural verses, trying to show assurance of salvation. For brevity, I show only one of your replies: > > Matt 24:13 "He who endures to the end will be saved" > > Matt 24:13 is talking about a QUALITY associated with a saved > person - continuance in the faith. Could this be any clearer > than in I John 2:19? !?! > > "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. > For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with > us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." > > This is in complete agreement with Matt 24:13. Both say he > that endures to the end will be saved. John expounds on that > and says he that does not endure never was. > It seems to me that you have only shown that if someone is really saved, then he is saved. What if those who ended up not saved had done their profession of faith, and had really thought they were saved? How does any of us know he isn't one of these? This is why I have always thought that this "assurance" seems pretty useless in practice. Suppose Elmo is a habitual sinner of the worst kind, used to doing all sorts of foul things. Suppose he sincerely repents and professes faith. You seem to be saying that Elmo is now saved forever, no matter what he may do ever again. Elmo has sincerely repented, and genuinely believes the right things, at least for today. According to your theory, Elmo is now absolutely guaranteed of salvation. But what about tomorrow? Suppose there's a great opportunity to make millions ripping people off, Elmo gives in, and leads the rest of his days swigging rum in the Virgin Islands, unrepentant for any sin, and cursing his conversion to Christianity. In addition, he does even fouler things than before. My point is that under your conditions, Elmo should be assured of his salvation because of his one day of faith, even though his later life was a complete contradiction of that faith. * If Elmo's assurance was wrong, why is his assurance on that one day any different than that which any of us can have who does not know the future? Remember that he was completely sincere, and well meaning for that one day. If this "guarantee" can be revoked through later bad action, then it is not really a guarantee at all, since it depends upon unforeseen circumstances. * If his assurance was right, doesn't this conflict with the Bible verses you've already seen, in view of his later unrepentant life? If Elmo can't be guaranteed because his day of faith, how can any of us be guaranteed, despite years of it? Rather, we should always be careful lest we should fall, though confident that if we do fall and yet sincerely repent, forgiveness and salvation are still possible, subject to God's grace. Michael louns@washington.cs.edu
billy@tcom.stc.co.uk (Billy Khan) (12/17/90)
Its very simple. In john it is written '...For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, so that WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM, shall not perish, but have eternal life....' I believe very strongly that once you are saved you are SAVED! doesn't Jesus promise to walk the whole way with you? 'Though I walk through the valley of death...' He'll never dessert you and no Christian..no matter how much they have slid backwards and forwards with ever wish to be without Christ. He'll always love you, Drew.
aa384@cleveland.freenet.edu (Doug Wokoun) (12/24/90)
moorer@nyssa.cs.orst.edu (Rocky Moore): >This is just a small sample list of many scriputre (in old and new testaments) >which can be used to deny the "Once Saved" theology. It only matter how far >you open your eyes... I think some of your scripture references were skirting the issue, or missing it altogether. Some had nothing to do with salvation. The Bible is very clear on the issue: 2 Timothy 2:13 "If we are faithless, He remains faithful; for He cannot deny Himself." I Corinthians 3:11-15 "For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; _but_he_ _himself_shall_be_saved_, yet so as through fire." I Corinthians 6:9-11 "Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you; _but_you_were_washed,_but_you_were_ _sanctified,_but_you_were_justified_in_the_name_of_the_Lord_Jesus_Christ,_ _and_in_the_Spirit_of_our_God._" Ephesians 1:13-14 "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, [note: past tense] you were _sealed_ in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory." Emphasis mine through all passages - - - "The New Testament is altogether clear that maintaining our faith in God involves a struggle whose outcome is not guaranteed simply by the fact that we are saved. Instead, fighting the good fight of faith is what the spiritual conflict is really all about. To think otherwise is to invite defeat on the spiritual battlefield." - Zane Hodges, _Absolutely_Free_. -- Doug Wokoun / / _o___o_o_|_.|_.| (aa384@cleveland.Freenet.Edu) (o)-(o) ((((( Dug )))))____o__o_|_.|_.|_.|_.|_.| ||| L __o______|_.|_.|_.|_.|_.|_.|_.|_,| Atari / | \ S I G \___/ |_.|_.|_.|_.|_.|_.|_.|_.|_.|_.|_.|
gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) (01/03/91)
In article <Dec.14.03.57.15.1990.27698@athos.rutgers.edu> louns@cs.washington.edu (Michael Lounsbery) writes: [In response to something posted by Ken Kutz concerning our assurance of salvation. I deleted Ken's posting so as to save some space.] > >This is why I have always thought that this "assurance" seems pretty useless >in practice. Suppose Elmo is a habitual sinner of the worst kind, used to >doing all sorts of foul things. Suppose he sincerely repents and professes >faith. You seem to be saying that Elmo is now saved forever, no matter what >he may do ever again. Elmo has sincerely repented, and genuinely believes >the right things, at least for today. According to your theory, Elmo is now >absolutely guaranteed of salvation. > >But what about tomorrow? Suppose there's a great opportunity to make >millions ripping people off, Elmo gives in, and leads the rest of his days >swigging rum in the Virgin Islands, unrepentant for any sin, and cursing his >conversion to Christianity. In addition, he does even fouler things than >before. First of all, Michael, you set up a real paradox that maybe you did not intend. If this Elmo really did recieve the faith unto salvation, he is not going to fall away seeing as how salvation does not rest upon the works of man but rather the finished work of Christ Jesus. And His work is complete, eternal, lacking nothing. If salvation rested upon anything other than this, then your point would be well taken, and we should find ourselves hiding from the world trembling for fear of losing that which we now know to be permanent. It is permanent not because of man but because of the sovereign work of our Sovereign God. The verb used for faith in Eph. 2:8 and again for believe in John 3:16 is from the Greek pistis. It means far more than a mere mental movement. It conveys the sense of a total and absolute commitment to God of all we are, or ever will be, and all we have, or ever will have. It carries with it the sense of being a bondslave, as Paul refers to himself. Thus, if Elmo believes (pistis/pisteuo), then he is not making a mere mental movement but a commitment of such proportions as to turn his entire life around for eternity. This does not mean that Christians do not sin; we do. There is still the flesh that we must battle as Paul clearly points out in Romans 7. And we have to fight being drawn out by the enemy who uses our flesh against us. And for this, we have a God who has made provision for us. John makes the point that if we repent (we aren't talking remorse here), then God is faithful and just to forgive us. But our salvation is eternally secure at all points once we have committed through faith. When we sin after salvation, what is in jeopardy is our rewards and not our salvation. If our salvation was in jeopardy, then this would mean that something is lacking from the work of Christ. Often, people can have a deep and sincere feeling of remorse, but let's not confuse remorse with repentance. Remorse never precludes turning away from the Faith in the furture. And God does not require remorse; He requires repentance. Repentance is a complete turning away from sin and all that is of the "old man" toward the "new creature" in Christ and Faith. Repentance is not something that we are naturally inclined to; therefore, God gives us the faith necessary for repentance that leads to salvation. As for Elmo, based upon the story you have used as an example, and only because this is an example, I would say that Elmo never repented. He suffered a case of severe remorse that enabled him under his own power to change for a season. But once that season ended and temptation came, he not only fell into sin, he fell away from the Faith. Thus, Elmo's original confession of faith was based on a human work and not the work of God. It was the finished work of Elmo and not the finished work of Christ. In conclusion, let restate my position again. The assurance of our salvation is not predicated upon any works of man but rather the finished and eternally sufficient work of Christ Jesus. Salvation is not based upon anything we can do, but rather upon the sovereign work of our Sovereign God. It is by God's grace (unmerited kindness) that we have salvation through faith. And in fact, even the faith to believe is not of human origin; it is a gift of God. It is this faith that leads us to repent, turning from our former lives to the new life in Christ Jesus. Through this salvation, we become the children of God, and through the Spirit of adoption, we take our position in Christ as the sons and daughters of God, heirs of God and co-heirs with Jesus Christ. Yours in Christ, Gene Gross
louns@cs.washington.edu (Michael Lounsbery) (01/15/91)
In response to a thoughtfully written article by Gene Gross (gross@dg-rtp.dg.com): > First of all, Michael, you set up a real paradox that maybe you did not > intend. If this Elmo really did recieve the faith unto salvation, he is > not going to fall away seeing as how salvation does not rest upon the > works of man but rather the finished work of Christ Jesus. If I set up a paradox, it seems to me that this argument comes close to a tautology. If anyone receives faith "unto salvation" I take it by the way you use the term that they are going to be saved. Though it is trivially true that anyone who is bound for salvation will be saved, that in itself is not a very useful statement. It looks to me like this just moves the problem of "who is saved" to "who REALLY repents unto salvation", without having actually provided any assurance of either. I don't deny that anyone who does/believes whatever it is that is sufficient for salvation through Christ can be saved. (How can I?) Instead, since you have indicated that someone can mistakenly think he is repentant, but is actually only remorseful, I do wonder about how well grounded anyone's perception of this assurance for himself can be. > Thus, if Elmo believes (pistis/pisteuo), then he is not making > a mere mental movement but a commitment of such proportions as to turn > his entire life around for eternity. My silly story of the rise and fall of Elmo was contrived, but here's a real one. I have known actua{ people who were, in their early 20's, very sincere, faithful, practicing Christians. Years later, they rejected their Christian faith, and lived a new life, apparently in contradiction to Christian values. I think you would argue (please correct me if I'm wrong), based on what I tell you of their later life, that their original Christian life wasn't genuine all those years. But having known these people fairly well, I really doubt it. If they weren't sincere at the time, they did an amazing job of fooling everyone, including themselves. From this I conclude that either they did indeed reject their salvation, or that they were falsely assured of something that turned out to be wrong. This is why I still think the theory of assured salvation doesn't work when applied to real people in real life, and I don't understand how anyone can really be assured of this assurance without knowledge of the future. > If salvation rested upon > anything other than this, then your point would be well taken, and we > should find ourselves hiding from the world trembling for fear of losing > that which we now know to be permanent. It is permanent not because of > man but because of the sovereign work of our Sovereign God. My interpretation of salvation does draw me to the conclusion that I can freely choose to throw it away through rejecting God, but I certainly do not intend to hide trembling in consequence. Quite to the contrary, I think that hiding and trembling would be a primary way that I could reject my salvation. Christ commands us rather to be active in the world, spreading his message by word and deed. Hiding and trembling would be like the unworthy servant who buried his talents, and is a great evil I want to avoid. I reject this as a logical consequence of my belief, as much as you would reject the idea that "Now that I'm assured of heaven, I can live it up and do whatever I want" as a consequence of yours. As with so many articles in this group, I see now that this issue is rooted once again in the question of how much our salvation comes from God alone, with no cooperation from man, or from our choice to allow God to work his grace through us. Since we each seem to be bound to end up re-hashing this problem once more, I don't think either of us is going to convince the other on this one side aspect of a much deeper problem. Thank you for your careful response earlier. Michael [Historically, this was one of the big problems that the later Calvinist tradition had to deal with. Given that those who were called are assured of salvation, how could you assure people that they were really called. A lot of effort went into identifying signs by which people could tell that they were called. And even that didn't always reassure them. Luther had been bothered that his repentance wasn't good enough, and took solace in the fact that salvation wasn't from himself, but depended only upon God. But as the Calvinists found out, this creates its own spiritual tension, because we cannot necessarily know what God's plans are for us. Interestingly enough, universalism seems to have grown out of this problem within Calvinism. It's certainly a way of solving the problem, in that it lets you give people a real assurance of salvation. However it's not a solution that most Christians have been willing to accept. I don't have a solution either. --clh]
lums@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu (Andy Lumsdaine) (01/21/91)
In article <Jan.15.04.44.02.1991.12767@athos.rutgers.edu> louns@cs.washington.edu (Michael Lounsbery) writes: > >I have known actua{ people who were, in their early 20's, very >sincere, faithful, practicing Christians. Years later, they rejected their >Christian faith, and lived a new life, apparently in contradiction to >Christian values. I think you would argue (please correct me if I'm wrong), >based on what I tell you of their later life, that their original Christian >life wasn't genuine all those years. But having known these people fairly >well, I really doubt it. I have a question about this that maybe someone on the net can answer. Alot of the discussion about "once save always saved" seems to revolve around the fact that you must be a Christian at the time you die. That is, one could lead as bad a life as could be imagined, repent shortly before death, and go to heaven. Why is that it matters what the person's state is at the time of death? Let's say person A becomes a Christian when he is 20 years old, "falls away" when he is 21, and dies when he is 60. Let's say person B becomes a Christian when she is 59 and dies when she is 60. What is the difference between person A and B? Both were only Christians for one of 60 years (let's also assume that they both acheived the same level of spiritual maturity in that one year). Can someone help me with this? Regards, Andrew Andrew Lumsdaine "We don't understand the software, and lums@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu sometimes we don't understand the hardware, MIT RLE but we can *see* the blinking lights!"