jmoon@lehi3b15.csee.lehigh.edu (Jonggu Moon [890911]) (12/19/90)
There has been a hot debate over hear about this topic. I'm not talking about whether Christians should MARRY non-Christians. That's been talked to death. And I'm not talking about the friendly-platonic type of date. I'm talking about dating for the purpose of romance. I mean should Christians DATE ( whatever that means ) non-Christians ? Half of the people here say no because romance involves strong emotions that we with our weak faith will have difficulty in controlling. And so we would be more open to the suggestion of sin. Half of the people here say its okay because no real harm can come of it and its a great way to meet new people. Don't tell me to "pray and God will help you resist temptation" because sometimes God sees it fit to allow some to compromise their faith for the sake of their SO. ^>*<^ Jmoon
hammer@sp29.csrd.uiuc.edu (David Hammerslag) (12/24/90)
In article <Dec.19.04.58.52.1990.28756@athos.rutgers.edu>, jmoon@lehi3b15.csee.lehigh.edu (Jonggu Moon [890911]) writes: > >I mean should Christians DATE ( whatever that means ) non-Christians ? > >Don't tell me to "pray and God will help you resist temptation" because >sometimes God sees it fit to allow some to compromise their faith for >the sake of their SO. > When my wife and I started to date, she was a Christian and I was not. Now we are Christians together. While I can't say that I wouldn't have become a Christian without her influence, neither can I say that I would have. One side note: she did not "compromise" her faith, instead she helped dispell my notion that Christian == hypocrite. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- David Hammerslag | Keep an open mind, but not so open that people hammer@uicsrd.csrd.uiuc.edu | throw garbage in. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
uriel@oak.circa.ufl.edu (Scott Whitmore) (12/24/90)
In article <Dec.19.04.58.52.1990.28756@athos.rutgers.edu>, jmoon@lehi3b15.csee.lehigh.edu (Jonggu Moon [890911]) writes: >I mean should Christians DATE ( whatever that means ) non-Christians ? I guess it depends what you mean by "date." If you mean "go out with, have lunch with, see an occasional movie or have an occasional drink with," then Yes, of course, if you're so inclined. Christ went to a dinner party thrown by a tax collector, and made friends of prostitutes and thieves. Being social is okay unless the person in question has proven him/herself to be poisonous to you. Non-Christian friends can be led to Christ through you. If you mean by "date," "get involved in a fairly serious relationship with," I'd have to say No. One of the prereq's of such a relationship should always be that you ought to be FRIENDS with the person before trying to make him/her a S.O.! And, it's hard (for me at least) to really relate to non-Christians on a sufficiently deep basis. Plus there's always the possibility that the non-Christian partner will initiate untimely sexual activity. (One would hope that the Christian would show restraint... though that's often an unrealistic expectation... depends on the person.) You who think the above is totally off-base, are free to ignore it! > >^>*<^ Jmoon Scott -- Scott Whitmore Internet: uriel@maple.circa.ufl.edu 24-510 Tolbert Hall or uriel@maple.decnet%pine.circa.ufl.edu Gainesville, FL 32612 (USA) Friendly Neighborhood Standard Disclaimer "The Devil...the prowde spirit...cannot bear to be mocked." --Thomas More (?)
brendan@batserver.cs.uq.oz.au (Brendan Mahony) (12/24/90)
For the purposes of debate I exclude dating for recreational sex as a reasonable Christian activity. If you think otherwise the question is fairly trivial, or else wildly dogmatic. In <Dec.19.04.58.52.1990.28756@athos.rutgers.edu> jmoon@lehi3b15.csee.lehigh.edu (Jonggu Moon [890911]) writes: >There has been a hot debate over hear about this topic. >I'm not talking about whether Christians should MARRY non-Christians. I think the questions are heavily related. I make no judgement on that matter, but review the possibilities. don't marry => don't romance You are simply asking for trouble to get into a heavy romance whilst denying the possibility of marriage. can marry This is the more interesting situation. Dating non-Christians can obviously lead to lots of emotional and moral turmoil. There are people out there who will make romantic life difficult for a christian. That fact that it is usually call sex life says it all. Still is seems to me that if you believe God may call you to marry a non-christian then you should remain open to the possibility and follow the romantic leads you are offered. I expect most people would find life easier with a fellow Christian, of the same denomination even, but then God is not always about making our life easy. -- Brendan Mahony | brendan@batserver.cs.uq.oz Department of Computer Science | heretic: someone who disgrees with you University of Queensland | about something neither of you knows Australia | anything about.
geoff@pmafire.inel.gov (Geoff Allen) (12/24/90)
jmoon@lehi3b15.csee.lehigh.edu (Jonggu Moon [890911]) writes: >There has been a hot debate over hear about this topic. >I'm not talking about whether Christians should MARRY non-Christians. >That's been talked to death. And I'm not talking about the friendly-platonic >type of date. I'm talking about dating for the purpose of romance. > >I mean should Christians DATE ( whatever that means ) non-Christians ? Well, most marriages that I know of started with dates. >sometimes God sees it fit to allow some to compromise their faith for >the sake of their SO. Should you really compromise your faith *willfully* (which is what you seem to be saying you'd be doing if you dated a non-Christian). I'd say play it safe and only date Christians. (Some of us are actually worth marrying, you know. Just ask my wife. :^) ) -- Geoff Allen \ Since we live by the Spirit, uunet!pmafire!geoff \ let us keep in step with the Spirit. geoff@pmafire.inel.gov \ -- Gal. 5:25 (NIV)
kutz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Kenneth J. Kutz) (12/25/90)
In article <Dec.19.04.58.52.1990.28756@athos.rutgers.edu>, jmoon@lehi3b15.csee.lehigh.edu (Jonggu Moon [890911]) writes: > There has been a hot debate over hear about this topic. > I'm not talking about whether Christians should MARRY non-Christians. > That's been talked to death. And I'm not talking about the friendly-platonic > type of date. I'm talking about dating for the purpose of romance. > I mean should Christians DATE ( whatever that means ) non-Christians ? The answer I think depends on your motive. If you are witnessing to this person about the love of Christ, the God given love needed in order to make a relationship work, then I would say yes. After all, my wife wasn't a Christian when we met. She thought Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were Adam's sons. She now is a discussion leader in Bible Study Fellowship. He's the best thing that ever happened to her. We need not deprive our dates of such an introduction. -- Kenneth J. Kutz Internet kutz@andy.bgsu.edu Systems Programmer BITNET KUTZ@ANDY University Computer Services UUCP ...!osu-cis!bgsuvax!kutz Bowling Green State Univ. US Mail 238 Math Science, BG OH 43403
svinson@dcsc.dla.mil (Sondra L. Vinson) (01/03/91)
In response to the question asked. Should Christians date Non-Christians. I believe so. My boyfriend and I dated for 4 years and he was not a Christian However, he treated me with the utmost respect both mentally/physically. Because of this I believe of relationship grew out of pure love because of me being the way I was he too came to know the goodness and love of what I believe in and to this day we are still together (as husband and wife) Hope this helped svm
garyh@crash.cts.com (Gary Hipp) (01/07/91)
>>There has been a hot debate over hear about this topic. Weren't you taught not to play with fire? >that if you believe God may call you to marry a non-christian then you >should remain open to the possibility and follow the romantic leads you >are offered. I expect most people would find life easier with a fellow >Christian, of the same denomination even, but then God is not always >about making our life easy. God will never call you to marry a non-Christian unless you are one. Gary
vanm@col.hp.com (Van Martin) (01/09/91)
> There has been a hot debate over hear about this topic. > I'm not talking about whether Christians should MARRY non-Christians. > That's been talked to death. And I'm not talking about the friendly-platonic > type of date. I'm talking about dating for the purpose of romance. > I mean should Christians DATE ( whatever that means ) non-Christians ? A thought I was presented with some time ago begins with Question 1 of the "Shorter Catechism" which asks: "What is the chief end of Man?" The answer is "To glorify God and enjoy Him forever." Questions to ask ourselves in relation to romance and dating might be "Will this person help me to glorify God? Will I enhance his/her relationship to God? Will this person impede my relationship to God?" When considering "dating" as more than a social how-do-you-do type of thing, the end in mind may very well be marriage (which we do have pretty good guidelines for in Scripture). The uneven yoking of oneself to an unbeliever, even in dating, can be unwise. It is not the behavior that determines what is right and wrong, but the spirit (motive) of the thought. Praise God that we have Romans 8:28 to take care of all the times we refused to operate in obedience to His call! There are many who became Christians as a result of a saved spouse, but there are also a lot of lagging believers who did not believe God was serious about being unequally yoked. The unbeliever is *not* interested in glorifying God! We see that so clearly in Scripture. When considering a date, consider the glory of God in that relationship. As it says in I Cor. 7:16, "Wife, how do you know whether you will save your husband? Husband, how do you know whether you will save your wife?" It stretches a bit to say this applies to dating, but, as someone earlier noted, most marriages begin with dates. To me, dating unbelievers was playing with fire. I dated one for 2 years and grew more distant from my Lord each day of that relationship. Hope this helps. Van Martin (new to notes outside my company--don't know my address) Electrical Engineer for Hewlett-Packard Co., Colo. Spgs., Colorado vanm@hpcspc.col.hp.com P.S. Pushing interpretation to the limit, in Haggai 2:11-14 it says "'Thus says the LORD of hosts: Ask the priests to decide this question, "If one carries holy flesh in the skirt of his garment, and touches with his skirt bread, or pottage, or wine, or oil, or any kind of food, does it become holy?"' The priests answered, 'No.' Then said Haggai, 'If one who is unclean by contact with a dead body touches any of these, does it become unclean?' The priests answered 'It does become unclean.' Then Haggai said, 'So is it with this people, and with this nation before me, says the LORD ...'" We will not make our dates "clean" by virtue of our salvation, but, as in the case of Israel, sanctification can be hindered by following their lead (away from God). End of Bible-stretching exercise :-)
oracle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu (Brian T. Coughlin) (01/09/91)
Re: Gary Hipp In article <Jan.6.22.41.42.1991.22484@athos.rutgers.edu>, garyh@crash.cts.com (Gary Hipp) writes in response to [someone]: >>that if you believe God may call you to marry a non-christian then you >>should remain open to the possibility and follow the romantic leads you >>are offered. I expect most people would find life easier with a fellow >>Christian, of the same denomination even, but then God is not always >>about making our life easy. >God will never call you to marry a non-Christian unless you are one. Hi, Gary! I must take exception, here. My father is a devout Catholic, and my mother is Jewish (not an active one as such, but certainly not a Christian). The marriage is still strong, and I'm quite strong in my (Catholic) faith, to the point that I'm entering a Catholic seminary in the fall of '91. (I just got my acceptance letter! Yay!! :) ) My mother, in fact, was the person to TAKE me to CCD and mass every Sunday during certain months when my father couldn't. She was/is of the firm belief that if we were Catholic, then we should be serious about being Catholic. That attitude doesn't strike me as one that's particularly dangerous to Christianity. My father WAS "called" (as such) to marry my Jewish mother, and our whole family is better for it. I hope this helps! ---- Take care! Sincerely, Brian Coughlin oracle@eleazar.dartmouth.edu
benning@uunet.uu.net (01/09/91)
In article <Jan.3.04.01.27.1991.14367@athos.rutgers.edu>, svinson@dcsc.dla.mil (Sondra L. Vinson) writes: > In response to the question asked. Should Christians date Non-Christians. I > believe so. My boyfriend and I dated for 4 years and he was not a Christian > However, he treated me with the utmost respect both mentally/physically. > Because of this I believe of relationship grew out of pure love because of > me being the way I was he too came to know the goodness and love of what > I believe in and to this day we are still together (as husband and wife) > I'm glad this worked out. It isn't always the norm though. I'm not so sure that Christians should date non-Christians. I know of Two men who now date non-Christians. Each week they are pulled further from the Lord and the Brothers and Sisters. When I speak to them they cry their eyes out about how much they love their perspective mates, but they know they can't make a move toward marriage because this would put a great strain on them. Speaking for myself, My wife and I were strictly secular when we got married. She is Jewish, I was an atheist. After 1.5 years we began to have problems (as is usually the case). While trying to prove the BIBLE wrong because of an evanelist, I found myself believing, an coming to the Lord. It has been 5 plus years now and I can't explain over the newsgroup the pain I have endured through the years because my wife has said "either me or Him.." I have always picked Him and this creates an even greater problem. But the Lords grace has been there to help and where I should have been divorced numerous times, I'm still married. Jesus is that third party in our marriage who helps us through ALL things. But when It comes to doing the Lords work, much of the time I have to clear it through my wife. Would I recommend this to anyone? NO WAY!!! Believe the Bible when it says don't be unequally yoked. To do otherwise will have consequences. SPEAKING IN love, B. Benning _________________ > > svm
gt1104c@prism.gatech.edu (SILVERT,STANLEY DAVID JR) (01/09/91)
In article <Jan.6.22.41.42.1991.22484@athos.rutgers.edu> garyh@crash.cts.com (Gary Hipp) writes: > >God will never call you to marry a non-Christian unless you are one. > >Gary I give the example of my grandparents. When they were married, my grandmother was the daughter of a Baptist minister and my grandfather was a practicing Jew. As their marriage progressed, my granfather was converted to Christianity. He is now a deacon in his church in Florida that both grandparents helped to found. There is no doubt in my mind that that God was calling my grandmother to marry my grandfather and I'm sure glad they did so that I could be here. Gary needs to do some long hard thinking before he starts telling us what God will and will not do. -- Stan Silvert Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 uucp: ...!{allegra,amd,hplabs,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!prism!gt1104c ARPA: gt1104c@prism.gatech.edu
mib@wookumz.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell) (01/09/91)
In article <Jan.6.22.41.42.1991.22484@athos.rutgers.edu> garyh@crash.cts.com (Gary Hipp) writes: >that if you believe God may call you to marry a non-christian then you >should remain open to the possibility and follow the romantic leads you >are offered. I expect most people would find life easier with a fellow >Christian, of the same denomination even, but then God is not always >about making our life easy. God will never call you to marry a non-Christian unless you are one. Gary Well, and there you have it, folks. Gary has assured us that this dilemma will never happen to us, unless, of course, we aren't *really* Christians at all. Thanks, Gary. Why not deal with the issue head on instead of making blank assertions like this? -- Michael I. Bushnell \ This above all; to thine own self be true LIBERTE, EGALITE, FRATERNITE \ And it must follow, as the night the day, mike@unmvax.cs.unm.edu /\ Thou canst not be false to any man. CARPE DIEM / \ Farewell: my blessing season this in thee!
art@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (Art Mulder) (01/15/91)
In article <Jan.6.22.41.42.1991.22484@athos.rutgers.edu> garyh@crash.cts.com (Gary Hipp) writes: > >God will never call you to marry a non-Christian unless you are one. > >Gary I've seen a lot of articles that took exception to the above statement. I think that by now I've read 3 or 4 "but look at this couple and how well it worked out for them" stories. That's great, and we should praise God for that. However my first reaction to stories like that would be to regard them as instances when God, in his infinite mercy, has taken a bad situation and made it work out for good. This does not change the fact that the original action was a sin, and therefore we should actively discourage others from pursuing that path. For example, in Genesis, when Josephs brothers beat him and sold him into slavery, that was wrong. However like Joseph said years later (after he had be made overseer over all Egypt) in Genesis 50:20 "...you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good..."(RSV) This doesn't change that what Josephs brothers did to him was wrong, it just shows how God can turn a wrongful act into a blessing, if he so chooses. Sure your spouse might come to the Lord. But, they might not, and consider the potential pain and struggles if they don't. Arguments/discussion welcome. ...art -- ----------- Art Mulder, McMaster University art@maccs.DCSS.mcmaster.ca Hamilton, Ont, Canada ...!uunet!utai!utgpu!maccs!art
davidh@tektronix.tek.com (David L Hatcher) (01/15/91)
> I mean should Christians DATE ( whatever that means ) non-Christians ?
Well, I wouldn't call me a "non-Christian", though I sure do not
call Christianity the spiritual tradition that I follow. But, I
am married to a "Christian". So I think that ought to qualify me
in submitting a post to this thread.
My marriage is quite good. In fact, I feel it is much better than
many of our friends where both are Christians. And we are celebrating
our 10 year anniversary in March. We are very, very happy together.
We even sometimes kid each other on how alive our marrage is.
I've been asked many times by different people if we are having
trouble because of our differing spiritual paths.. It is a common
question. I feel that there are several reasons why our marriage
working, even though we follow different spiritual traditions.
The first and perhaps most important is that neither of us try
to convert the other. We don't even feel the need to. We also are
each able to see the blessings God has given us, and together
praise God. Which than allows us some time to be together in
worship. We both know that God is very much in our lives. And,
together, we often give thanks for that.
There was a time where we did hit some rough spots. Mostly
because Christianity has a way of being most unforgiving to
folks who are not Christian. But that has been worked out
because my wife has been able to see God in my life, even
though I am not a Christian. And I have made it a point to
go to Bible study sometimes with her. I've gotten to know
her minister quite well now. And even have taken him to the
Trappist Abby where I often go on retreat. So, all of these
things have helped sidetrack the doubt that she might have felt.
One last thing. I've been reading the postings related to this
subject and I really feel a sort of anguish at some of the
excuses I've seen for a Christian to not marry a non-Christian.
They remind me of an occasion a few years ago when I came
to a new job, and right off a Christian flat out told me that
we could never be good friends because I was not Christian.
To me, the open heart love of one living in Christ ought to
cut right through such divisions as those caused by the outer
form of religion. I just do not understand the need of so
many Christians to cause separation like they do. It seems
so un-Christ like!
David Hatcherjoseph@cs.albany.edu (Jody Richardson) (01/16/91)
So far the discussion has basically followed the format of previous discussions on this topic that I have participated in. That is, detractors of dating non-Christians cite examples of failed relationships (either pre or post-marriage failures) AND scripture. Advocates cite examples of successful relationships. Get the point? In case you don't... God is the ultimate transmogrifyer. He can change anything for good. In this case, relationships that begin with incompatible world views. I have no doubt that occassionally Christian/non-Christian combinations are successful (in the sense that the non-Christian spouse becomes a Christian or more liberally, that there is no divorce). But you should be very, very, VERY careful. My impression is that there are MANY more Christians who drift away from the Lord because of these relationships than there are non-Christians who become saved. Of all the mixed relationship examples that I've heard, Tim Roeder's personal example (from an earlier posting) is, IMO, the closest to the appropriate way to approach a potentially permanent relationship with a non-Christian (or another Christian for that matter). Mainly in the way that he prayed so much beforehand. Many (most) of the examples I hear do not include this. Mostly it's just two people "in love" and the Christian is not truly willing to consider God's point of view because they just want the other person SO MUCH. So praying about it or considering the counsel of other Christians is all but forgotten. Bottom line,... It's just too dangerous. Paul knew what he was talking about. So, unless you think you're a prophet extrodinaire like Hosea, don't even think about parking there. Jody Richardson | "If you don't get a goodnight kiss, you joseph@cs.albany.edu | get Kafka dreams." -- Hobbes
jfields@aixvi2.intel.com (01/22/91)
In article <Jan.15.04.49.14.1991.12873@athos.rutgers.edu> art@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (Art Mulder) writes: >In article <Jan.6.22.41.42.1991.22484@athos.rutgers.edu> garyh@crash.cts.com > (Gary Hipp) writes: >> >>God will never call you to marry a non-Christian unless you are one. >> >>Gary > > I've seen a lot of articles that took exception to the above statement. I >think that by now I've read 3 or 4 "but look at this couple and how well it >worked out for them" stories. That's great, and we should praise God for >that. > However my first reaction to stories like that would be to regard them as >instances when God, in his infinite mercy, has taken a bad situation and >made it work out for good. This does not change the fact that the original >action was a sin, and therefore we should actively discourage others from >pursuing that path. The operative "we" in the last clause of this last statement has no right or authority to actively disuade a Christian from seeking the company of anyone, regardless of religion. Who are "we" to discern the sins of others when those sins do not directly affect "us"? On what basis can "we" make the determination that a brother or sister is sinning by an act or acts when that act or acts do not concern "us". In other words, "we" should mind our own business. The confession and repentence of sin is between God and the individual, or in some cases between a confessor, God and the individual. If the individual has transgressed against himself, then God will make that apparent to the individual through the Holy Spirit. How can "we" discern that God did not call a Christian to date a non-Christian or that such an act is a sin? If the early Christians had taken the attitude that Christians could not seek the company of the unconverted, then Christianity would have died as an obscure cult in the First Century AD because there would have been no converts to Christianity. -Jeff Fields
EFL0@ns.cc.lehigh.edu (Edward Francis Lamb) (01/23/91)
But marriage is not just another relationship. It is the union of two
people to become one. This has nothing to do with loving someone. It
has everything to do with loving God. If scripture says we shouldn't
do something, then we shouldn't do this. It's stated in 2 Cor 6:14+
"Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do
righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can
light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and
Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What
agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the
temple of the living God." (NIV)
OK. This statement is clear. One can always disobey, and God may,
through His grace, allow a good situation to be there. But now
someone's argument is with the Bible, so I won't proceed. Remember, if
God did not allow good to happen to sinners, we'd all be in trouble.
Now, about dating non-Christians. First you have to define dating.
If dating is just a means for friendship, fine. But if dating is a
means for finding a spouse, or finding what you don't want in a spouse,
it is clear to me that since there is already a basis for no
intermarriage, then there can be no dating of non-Christians in this
context. Seeing how pure God wanted his people to be in the Old
Testament (as far as marrying outside the tribe, etc.), I think it is
safe to say that since He never changes, it has to be that way now.
But, as with every other choice we have, we can disobey. This has come
up in our fellowship here at Lehigh, and I have looked into this and
talked to people about this.
Ed Lamb
________________________________________________________________________
Ed Lamb .387 aversage
Catcher 53 homeruns
Philadelphia Phillies 157 runs batted in
National League MVP 67 stolen bases
World Series MVP
________________________________________________________________________
--Hey, I can dream, can't I ??????