cms@dragon.uucp (08/08/90)
In article <Aug.5.18.59.02.1990.17330@athos.rutgers.edu>, tp0x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Thomas Carl Price) writes: >>Why is it OK for someone who is alive to be a mediator for you to God >>and not some one who is dead? > > > Because dead people are asleep in the ground awaiting the resurrection, that's > why. Psalm 6:5, and elsewhere -- I could elaborate if people are interested. > > TP Psalm 6 reflects a common notion at the time that the abode of the dead was a place of no activity surrounded by darkness. This notion held firm almost until the time of Christ when God Himself revealed a clearer notion of the hereafter. Wisdom 3:1 says: But the souls of the just are in the hand of God, and no torment shall touch them. They seemed, in the view of the foolish, to be dead; and their passing away was thought an affliction and their going forth from us, utter destruction. But they are in peace. The Visitation of Souls (or Day of Judgment) is distinct from the resurrection, a point of confusion. Again, Wisdom 5:15 says: But the just live forever, and in the LORD is their recompense, and the thought of them is with the Most High. Therefore shall they receive the splendid crown, the beauteous diadem, from the hand of the LORD -- For he shall shelter them with his right hand, and protect them with his armor. Compare 2 Timothy 4:7: I have competed well; I have finished the race; I have kept the faith. From now on the crown of righteousness awaits me, which the Lord, the just judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me, but to all who have longed for his appearance. Yet 1 Peter 5:4 says, "And when the chief Shepherd is revealed, you will receive the unfading crown of glory," not a reference to the last judgment. Generally, references to the last judgment are accompanied by statements about ruling the nations along with punishments of the wicked. James 1:12 is similar, "Blessed is the man who perseveres in temptation, for when he has been proved he will receive the crown of life that he promised to those who love him." Matthew 28:20, "...And behold, I am with you *always*, until the end of the age." (emphasis mine) Jesus will be with us *always*, in this life and in the next life. The passage does not indicate that there will be any waiting period during which Jesus will not be with us. Also, in Matthew 23:43, Jesus says to the penitent thief, "Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise." If one assumes heaven is less a place-where than a condition of the soul, then Jesus is technically in heaven even as he marches into hell to free the souls of the "prisoners," as noted in Ephesians 4:8, "Therefore, it says: He ascended on high and took prisoners captive; he gave gifts to men. What does 'he ascended' mean except that he also descended into the lower [regions] of the earth? The one who descended is also the one who ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things." Ephesians 1:22 notes, "And he put all things beneath his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way." God fills all things, on the earth, above the earth, and below the earth. Thus, God was with the souls below the earth (peacefully resting) until Jesus Christ descended and brought them up into the highest heaven where they experienced the fullness of the knowledge and love of God. The Ephesians passage cited above (4:8) makes reference to the event in the past tense, indicating that Jesus has already taken the souls with him into the highest heaven. This is why, because of his Cross and Resurrection and saving of souls, Philippians 2:9 says, ....God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. -- Sincerely, Cindy Smith emory!dragon!cms
tp0x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Thomas Carl Price) (08/12/90)
>Psalm 6 reflects a common notion at the time that the abode of the dead was a >place of no activity surrounded by darkness. This notion held firm almost >until the time of Christ when God Himself revealed a clearer notion of the >hereafter. Wisdom 3:1 says: Right away I can see we shan't get anywhere because our conceptions of the Bible are not compatible. If David in the Psalms gets some of his metaphysical information wrong, and from common ignorance, and yet gets some of it right and prophesies of our Lord, how am I to tell which is which? I don't have any standard apart from the scriptures from which I can deduce that part of Psalm 6 must be common ignorance. In a related difficulty, there is no book of Wisdom in my bible. I could cite Gen 3:19; Ecc 12:7, 3:18-22; Ps 6:5, 31:17, and 146:4, but of course these are from the Old Testament. What do you say about Acts 2:34? Your further objections I did not understand. You said that passages about the day of judgment are all about the overthrows and violence associated with the rule of Christ on Earth, but that passages about the reward after death are not associated with those overthrows and violence, and then concluded that the rule of Christ on Earth and the reward after death cannot be concurrent. Even if I accept the generalities about the context of passages, the conclusion does not follow. Would you like me to look into the generalities about the context of passages, to see if the two are always separate? Finally, I know I am not the only person reading this board who denies an inherently immortal soul on the basis of Scripture. Could I invite the rest of you to post? Tom
hall@vice.ico.tek.com (Hal Lillywhite) (01/09/91)
In article <Jan.6.22.37.04.1991.22411@athos.rutgers.edu> barry1@ihlpa.att.com (Barry O Olson) writes: >First of all, none of them have been judged yet. The resurrection has not >occured(unless I missed it). Do you mean it hasn't started or that it isn't finished? If you believe it hasn't started what about Matt 27:52-53 "And the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves and went into the holy city and appeared unto many."
barry1@ihlpa.att.com (Barry O Olson) (01/15/91)
In article <Jan.9.03.48.03.1991.3128@athos.rutgers.edu>, hall@vice.ico.tek.com (Hal Lillywhite) writes: > In article <Jan.6.22.37.04.1991.22411@athos.rutgers.edu> barry1@ihlpa.att.com (Barry O Olson) writes: > >First of all, none of them have been judged yet. The resurrection has not > >occured(unless I missed it). > > Do you mean it hasn't started or that it isn't finished? If you > believe it hasn't started what about Matt 27:52-53 "And the graves > were opened and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and > came out of the graves and went into the holy city and appeared unto > many." It does say many(note:not all). Could be the first fruits of the resurrection to come. The graves in my town have not been opened. Well some have by vandals over the years. So Matt27:52-53 (imo) was a onetime event following Jesus's walking the earth in his new body. I believe the dead saints are somewhere with our Lord, which in no way implies that they are active in our life here on earth, thus my comment that only the perfect angels(or unfallen ones) would be in the best position to minister on our behalf. The dead saints (not being judged and rewarded yet) would still be imperfect and in the same state they were when they died, just as we are now; sinners washed by the blood of the lamb, but still imperfect. barry olson
dylan@ibmpcug.co.uk (Matthew Farwell) (01/22/91)
In article <Jan.9.03.48.03.1991.3128@athos.rutgers.edu> hall@vice.ico.tek.com (Hal Lillywhite) writes:A > Do you mean it hasn't started or that it isn't finished? If you > believe it hasn't started what about Matt 27:52-53 "And the graves > were opened and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and > came out of the graves and went into the holy city and appeared unto > many."A But did they rise in their new Glorified bodies or did they rise in the same way as Lazarus and die again later? Paul Matthew J Farwell | Email: dylan@ibmpcug.co.uk The IBM PC User Group, PO Box 360,| ...!uunet!ukc!ibmpcug!dylan Harrow HA1 4LQ England | CONNECT - Usenet Access in the UK!! Phone: +44 81-863-1191 | Sun? Don't they make coffee machines?
hall@vice.ico.tek.com (Hal Lillywhite) (01/24/91)
In article <Jan.22.00.42.19.1991.28056@athos.rutgers.edu> dylan@ibmpcug.co.uk (Matthew Farwell) writes: >In article <Jan.9.03.48.03.1991.3128@athos.rutgers.edu> >hall@vice.ico.tek.com (Hal Lillywhite) writes:A >> Do you mean it hasn't started or that it isn't finished? If you >> believe it hasn't started what about Matt 27:52-53 "And the graves >> were opened and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and >> came out of the graves and went into the holy city and appeared unto >> many." >But did they rise in their new Glorified bodies or did they rise in the >same way as Lazarus and die again later? The New Testament is not very specific on this point. It seems to me that it is talking about their glorified bodies. Firstly, Matthew makes a point of mentioning that this happened *after* the resurrection of Jesus (even though in the text this event comes before the description of Jesus' resurrection). I think Matthew is so specific on this point because Jesus must be the first fruits of the resurrection. If they were like Lazarus and going to die again their would be no problem if they arose before the resurrection of the Lord, and Matthew probably would not make such a point of mentioning it. Secondly, these saints "Appeared to many," the same language used to describe the appearance of resurrected beings such as Jesus. Perhaps someone with a knowledge of Greek could comment on the language used and clarify (or contradict) my reasoning. Admittedly these reasons are not iron-clad but to me they indicate that the saints indicated were in a state different from that of Lazarus and others who had their mortal lives restored and would die again. I believe they were resurrected at that time to immortality.