YZKCU@cunyvm.bitnet (Yaakov Kayman) (01/24/91)
In article <Jan.22.01.22.56.1991.28870@athos.rutgers.edu>, hedrick@geneva.rutgers.edu says: > >Yaakov Kayman: > Not merely unlikely. It simply will never happen! > Get it straight: NO practicing Jew denies Messiah. ALL practicing Jews > Deny that J____ is a messiah. >David Wagner: > The true Israel is the Israel of faith in C_____, the Christian church. > >I fear this discussion has gone as far as it can usefully go. >We have here two position that I believe simply can't communicate. > >It seems that Yaakov's statement is true by definition. There are >certainly people who otherwise meet the criteria of being Jews who >believe that J____ is the Messiah. However Orthodox Judaism says as a >matter of definition that anyone who has accepted C_____ is not a Jew. > >David's position is also one that -- while certainly based on NT >grounds -- can hardly be useful in a discussion of this sort. He is >using Israel here in a somewhat metaphorical sense, to refer to those >people who part of God's covenant as he sees it. Just as Yaakov >excludes Jewish Christians from being Jews by definition, David >excludes non-Christian Jews from being part of the true Israel. While >such language can be useful within the Church to emphasize the >continuity in God's covenant, it is hard to image anything more likely >to lead to misunderstanding and ill will in discussions with Jews. I'm afraid it goes well beyond this. There is a rather huge difference between the definition of a group given by members of that group, who are, after all, the only ones who may legitimately specify membership criteria, and that given by an outsider, whose definition is "legitimate" only in his/her eyes, and in the eyes of those who think like him/her. Only Judaism, the religion of the Jewish People, can legitimately specify what a Jew is and is not, and only members of the People of Israel, that same Jewish People, can legitimately specify who is and is not a part of that People of Israel. "Metaphorical" usage of the term "Israel" may satisfy the egos of those *outside* the People of Israel, but in truth this usage has *NO* significance whatsoever. A Jew who abandons Judaism to practice another faith is deemed by Judaism to be an apostate. A Jew who has not so abandoned Judaism, but does not subscribe to its laws, is by Judaism's definition, a non-practicing Jew. Such a Jew may or may not be considered by Judaism to be a heretic. As to the use of the highly offensive (to Jews) term "Jewish (sic) Christians," aside from my condemnation of the term, all I can say is one can be EITHER a practicing Jew (a practitioner of a certain religion, Judaism) OR a Christian (a practitioner of a different religion, Christi- anity), but never at the same time and by the same definition both. The term "Jewish Christian" has no more reality in Judaism than the term "phoenix." Similarly in Judaism, the term "non-Christian Jew" is a redun- dancy, as according to Judaism, it reflects merely another member of the set "NON-non-Jewish Jew." Understand that any Christian using the above terms may be achieving consistency with Christianity, but is using a different, and unrecognized dictionary in any conversations with Jews. Yaakov K. -------- Yaakov Kayman (212) 903-3666 City University of New York BITNET: YZKCU@CUNYVM "Lucky is the shepherd, and lucky his flock Internet: YZKCU@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU about whom the wolves complain"
jhpb@granjon.garage.att.com (01/27/91)
Yaakov Kayman writes:
Only Judaism, the religion of the Jewish People, can legitimately
specify what a Jew is and is not, and only members of the People of
Israel, that same Jewish People, can legitimately specify who is and
is not a part of that People of Israel. "Metaphorical" usage of the
term "Israel" may satisfy the egos of those *outside* the People of
Israel, but in truth this usage has *NO* significance whatsoever.
But, Yaakov, it has in my religion!
I wish this discussion would tone down somewhat. It is enlightening me
about little more than the ability of people to yell at each other on
religious topics.
Joe Buehler