[soc.religion.christian] Once Saved, Always Saved

rbaker@magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu (Robert Baker) (12/17/90)

One thought I've had on this ,"once saved, always saved" question is that I
have not seen anyone talk about the role of free will choice in salvation.
Although if you are predestined to salvation...ahhh, that's another can of
beans...anyway my point is   if I have a free will choice to accept Christ and
all he has to offer I ought to still have a free will choice to renounce his
hold/postion in my life  a.k.a. "not be saved" anymore.

not that I'd recommend or be willing to go to hell to prove my point  
Robert"not Bob"

[I thought this had already been dealt with.  As I understand it,
there's a disagreement about what is within our ability to decide.
Those who believe in election believe that someone who has not been
regenerated is unable to choose God -- not physically incapable, but
rather their motives and character are so corrupted by sin that
without God's intervention they are always going to do the wrong
thing.  God's intervention involves regenerating us -- making us the
"new creature" that Paul talked about.  Once that has happened, we are
going to respond to God.  If you end up rejecting God, this would be
taken as evidence that you hadn't really been regenerated in the first
place, but were simply showing some of the outward signs of salvation.

Logically you could take the position that even after having been
regenerated, someone could fall again.  The reason I believe those who
believe in election reject this position is that it implies that
salvation is caused by something about us, rather than by God's grace.
That is, those who persevere would have to be viewed as in some way
"better" than those who fall back.  The concept of election was
reintroduced into the Church by Luther.  As far as I can tell, he had
a radical distrust of people (and in particular himself).  He felt
that if his salvation rested on anything other than God, it would not
be secure.  To him, requiring that you had to be good enough to
persevere in salvation was just as bad as requiring you to be good to
be saved in the first place: it meant you had to rely in some way on
your own goodness.

Frankly I'm not sure there is any way out of this existential trap.
Luther obviously had no question of whether he was elected.  Anything
that required him to do something, even something as simple as simply
not rejecting Jesus, left him feeling uneasy.  He had no confidence in
his own goodness.  We wanted his salvation to rest entirely on God's
decision, and nothing of his own.  

However the later history of Calvinism makes it clear that putting all
the responsibility on God leaves us with a different but just as
serious problem: how do we know that God has really elected us?  Given
that some people start out appearing to be saved but fall away, we
have to adopt the view that there are no infallible external signs
that guarantee that you are saved.  So the same problem Luther had
with relying on his own goodness, the later Calvinists had in relying
on God's election.  This led to all sorts of odd modifications to
Calvinism, including Universalism.  A lot of effort in Calvinist
theology went into defining ways to known that you are elected.

I'm ont proposing any specific resolution of the problem here, but
trying to make the consequences of the positions as clear as possible.

--clh]

tdm7695@tamsun.tamu.edu (Tom Moriarty) (01/29/91)

>In article <Jan.20.14.18.58.1991.13848@athos.rutgers.edu> 
>lums@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu (Andy Lumsdaine) writes:

>  I have a question about this that maybe someone on the net can answer.
>   Alot of the discussion about "once save always saved" seems to revolve
>   around the fact that you must be a Christian at the time you die.
>   That is, one could lead as bad a life as could be imagined, repent
>   shortly before death, and go to heaven.  Why is that it matters what
>   the person's state is at the time of death?  

>   Let's say person A becomes a Christian when he is 20 years old, "falls
>   away" when he is 21, and dies when he is 60.  Let's say person B
>   becomes a Christian when she is 59 and dies when she is 60.  What is
>   the difference between person A and B?  Both were only Christians for
>   one of 60 years (let's also assume that they both acheived the same
>   level of spiritual maturity in that one year).

>   Can someone help me with this?

Anyone who believes in the Lord Jesus is the Son of God shall have eternal
life. John 3:15-16 says, "That everyone who believes in Him may have
eternal life.  For God so loved the world that He have His only begotten
Son, that everyone who believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal
life". The Bible tells us that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit when we
believe (Ephesians 1:13; 2 Corinthians 1:22). Other verses say that all of
those who become believers became believers in Christ because they were
"predestined before the foundation of the world" (Ephesians 1:5, Romans
8:29). Therefore, it is clear that once a person is sealed with the Holy
Spirit, he can never be "unsealed". Once a person is dispensationally
transferred out of the kingdom of Satan and into the kingdom of God, he can
never be dispensationally transferred back again into the kingdom of Satan
(Christians do of course fall into gross sin.)  So there is scriptural
truth behind the teaching of "once saved -- always saved".

The problem with the "once saved -- always saved" teaching is that it
misses the mark when it comes to God's plan and purpose of the ages. God
regenerates anyone who calls upon the Lord's name with a pure heart.
Romans 10:9 says "That if you confess with your mouth, Lord Jesus, and
believe in your heart that God has raised Him from among the dead, you
shall be saved".  Salvation is as simple as calling on the name "Lord
Jesus" in an audible way, out of a pure heart. God saves and regenerates
christians but for what purpose? Does God save man so that christians can
boast in a vain and idle way? Does God save man so that he can be a part of
an exclusive social club? Or does God save man so that he can obtain a free
ticket to heaven? I know some genuinely saved and regenerated christians
who are living the same loose, unsanctified, and sinful lifestyles as
anyone of the unbelieving world. There are a few cases that I have observed
where the unbelievers have behaved more ethically than the believers in
Christ.  It is true that "blood of Jesus" always and unconditionally washes
away the sin of anyone who geniunely believes in him. Any genuinely saved
christian has the proper ground to say that his sins are unconditionally
and completely washed away by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ,
the son of God.  However, I think that you can realize that the slogan
"once saved and always saved" while scripturally sound mishandles the
matter of God having a plan and purpose of the ages.

God saves and regenerates us with the hope that we might take part in the
coming kingdom age. When Jesus Christ comes back, He will setup a 1000 year
kingdom. Revelation chapters 2 and 3 tell us that only the "overcomers" or
the "overcoming christians" will reign as co-kings with Christ in the
coming kingdom age. Salvation is as simple as believing in him and calling
upon the name "Lord Jesus". However, entering into the 1000 year kingdom to
be a part of God's government and administration is not so simple. The book
of Matthew exposes Jesus of Nazareth as the proper King prepared to rule
over the entire earth for a 1000 years after his second coming. Matthew
reveals a harder and more demanding gospel than that revealed in John
because the gospel of Matthew was written with the view that all would
enter into the kingdom of heavens. The "overcoming" christians will be
rewarded with a crown and the "backslidden and unprepared" christians will
be disciplined and even cast into outer darkness.  Today, you can find the
"seeds" of the kingdom of the heavens if you will look hard enough and pray
enough. In this present age, the kingdom of the heavens is in "seed-form"
which means that the overwhelming majority of the unbelieving world has no
concept that such a thing as the "kingdom of the heavens" exists today. But
when Christ returns, the "kingdom of the heavens" will appear in great
splendor and all the nations will recognize Christ as the King of a divine
administration that will last one thousand years.

Salvation is the first step of this path, and the reward is the last step.
It is only the saved ones who are qualified to gain the reward. The unsaved
ones are not qualified for this. God has given us two things rather than
one thing. God places the gift before the worldly people and places the
reward before the christians. When one believes in Christ, he receives the
gift. When one follows Christ, he receives the reward. Gift is obtained
through faith, and it is for the worldly people. Reward is obtained by
being faithful and having good deeds, and it is for the christians.

There is a big mistake in the churches today. Man thinks that salvation is
the only thing and that there is nothing elses besides being saved. He
takes the kingdom of the heavens and eternal life as the same thing. He
considers that since one is saved when he believes, no longer does he have
to be concerned for works. Once anyone believes in the Lord Jesus, he is
saved. But after salvation, God immediately places the second thing before
him, telling him that besides salvation, there is a reward, a coming glory,
a crown, and a throne for him. God puts His throne, crown, glory, and
reward before the believers. If one is faithful, he will obtain these, If
he is faithful, he will lose them.

You asked the question:

>   That is, one could lead as bad a life as could be imagined, repent
>   shortly before death, and go to heaven.  Why is that it matters what
>   the person's state is at the time of death?  

One could lead as bad a life as possible, repent before death, and escape
the eternal damnation of the lake of fire in Revelation 20:15 (hell).
Salvation is simple and unconditional.  No matter how atrocious that
person's sins are, such a person is eternally saved and regenerated when he
believes in Christ Jesus.  A person's state is important in terms of
whether or not that believer receives the inheritance of the millenial
kingdom.  Furthermore, it matters in terms of whether or not that person
reigns together with Christ as a co-king during his divine administration.
It is unlikely that such a one would receive the inheritance of the
millenial kingdom.

>   Let's say person A becomes a Christian when he is 20 years old, "falls
>   away" when he is 21, and dies when he is 60.  Let's say person B
>   becomes a Christian when she is 59 and dies when she is 60.  What is
>   the difference between person A and B?  Both were only Christians for
>   one of 60 years (let's also assume that they both acheived the same
>   level of spiritual maturity in that one year).

In order to become a co-king with Christ, we need the training, education,
and discipline that a king needs in order to be qualified for
consideration.  The apostle Paul often exhorted the believes so that they
would be "renewed and transformed" in their minds. Unless persons A or B
that you described were to have been thoroughly "renewed and transformed"
in their minds after salvation, I would think that it would be unlikely
that they would participate in the 1000 year kingdom.









--
*    Thomas Moriarty                   |    tdm7695@tamsun.tamu.edu    *
*    808 San Saba                      |                               *
*    College Station, Texas USA        |                               *
*    77845   (409 693-5829             | Bitnet: tdm7695@tamvenus      *