kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie) (01/09/91)
On this, the first Sunday of Epiphany, I noticed that I've never heard a sermon on Wise Men that addresses the astrological aspect. Christians generally disapprove of astrology (though having looked through several lists of Scripture verses provided to demonstrate that astrology is verboten, I have discovered that most of the verses named have nothing to do with the subject), and we Modern Smart People know that it's all bunk. Isaiah certainly doesn't seem to think much of it, essentially saying (in 47:13-15) that it's all rot. In Matthew 2, however, we read of the Magi coming to find Jesus. They are generally considered to have been astrologers from Persia or Arabia. They know it is the time for him, they say, because "we saw his star in the east" (v2). Worse yet, the return to their own country (and apparently their religion), and nobody has even explained The Four Spiritual Laws to them! Not once in the entire passage does the phrase `substitutionary atonement' appear. If astrology really is bad, why doesn't anybody tell the Magi? And if it's really so much hokum, what do we make of there being a Scripture story that describes successful predictions based on positions of stars? kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu Darren F. Provine ...njin!gboro!kilroy "If one is really a superior person, the fact is likely to leak out without too much assistance." -- John Andrew Holmes
philpot@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov (philpot) (01/15/91)
In article <Jan.9.02.44.52.1991.2636@athos.rutgers.edu> kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie) writes: > On this, the first Sunday of Epiphany, I noticed that I've never heard > a sermon on Wise Men that addresses the astrological aspect. We had a very interesting and even novel sermon at my church the 2nd Sunday of Advent that did deal with this part of the account. > Christians generally disapprove of astrology ... > If astrology really is bad, why doesn't anybody tell the Magi? And if it's > really so much hokum, what do we make of there being a Scripture story that > describes successful predictions based on positions of stars? The sermon basically identified the three kinds of people in the story and then looked at their reactions to Jesus' birth: 1. Herod, when he found out about Him, considered him a threat to his own power and carried out a campaign of infanticide to try to eliminate this threat. Category: Fear 2. The religious leaders, when queried by the Magi as to where the prophecies indicated He would be born, looked in the Scriptures and knew the right answer, but didn't really act on this knowledge. Basically, what they had awaited their entire lives was happening in their midst, and they didn't go out of their way to check it out. Category: Ambivalence 3. The Magi, who were foreigners and of a different religion, gave him gifts, acknowledged His lordship and fell down and worshiped Him. Category: Sincere seeking The developement was that this was of course just a prefiguration of God's inclusion of all peoples in the New Covenant. The wonder of the visit of the Magi was not that they themselves (via astrology) found the Christ child themselves, but that God decided to reveal this wonder to them (non-Jew, foreign, sinner=astrologer, distant) of all people. The sermon went on to characterize the gifts they brought: * gold - worthy of a king * incense - recognizing Him as a priest * myrrh - embalming material, foreshadowing His saving death to emphasize the depth of worship the Magi had for the child. This may not adequately represent the content of the sermon, nor may it really deal with astrology per se, but I found it nonetheless a welcome break from the typical Advent treatment of the story. kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu Darren F. Provine ...njin!gboro!kilroy "If one is really a superior person, the fact is likely to leak out without too much assistance." -- John Andrew Holmes ______________________________________________________________________ Andrew Philpot Internet: philpot@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov Usmail: NASA Ames Research Center, MS 244/17, Moffett Field CA 94035 Phone: (415) 604-1105
mib@pogo.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell) (01/15/91)
In article <Jan.9.02.44.52.1991.2636@athos.rutgers.edu> kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie) writes:
On this, the first Sunday of Epiphany, I noticed that I've never heard
a sermon on Wise Men that addresses the astrological aspect.
I heard one once, and it was pretty interesting. The idea was that
the revelation to Israel proceeded by the Pentateuch and the prophets,
and that these were gifts to Israel. But, in line with the idea of an
epiphany, the Gentiles might come to know their need for God through
their own means (astrology in the case of the Magi) and seek God,
finding him. This became possible with the gift of Christ to all
people, which then extended the gifts to Israel as gifts to all
people.
-mib
--
Michael I. Bushnell \ This above all; to thine own self be true
LIBERTE, EGALITE, FRATERNITE \ And it must follow, as the night the day,
mike@unmvax.cs.unm.edu /\ Thou canst not be false to any man.
CARPE DIEM / \ Farewell: my blessing season this in thee!davidh@tektronix.tek.com (David L Hatcher) (01/15/91)
In article <Jan.9.23.43.19.1991.21617@athos.rutgers.edu> srh@cblph.att.com (Steven R Houser) writes: >[Kilroy noted that Christians generally disapprove of astrology. >He wonders how people reconcile this with the Wise Men, who came >based on astrological analysis. --clh] > >Even though the magi were unconnected with Judaism, they must have had the kind >of attitude toward God that constitutes saving faith. Hence their appropriate >worship of the child Jesus. It may be the faith of these men that caused God >to reveal truth to them through the only source of revelation they understood. > >The magi must have been people who came to God based on general revelation. What >verified that they were earnestly seeking God was their response when they saw >Jesus. I look upon the story of the Magi from the complete opposite direction and emphasis. To me it is the Divinity with in Christ the the Magi were seeking. The person, baby Jesus, I feel was secondary. It is after all the divinity with in that made the person named Jesus so great. If one were to look even further into this picture, you might perceive that the Zoroastrians, which is the religion that the Magi belonged too, as being fire-worshippers. But what they were really worshipping is the source of ALL light. The turning towards fire in worship was their way of keeping their body, mind and soul, on God. For fire purifies all things and the light with in purifies all souls. It keeps them aware of the Divine Light that is with in ALL things. I say ALL things, because the Zoroastrians also worshipped before running streams of water and different places out in nature which open a person to the Divine immanence that radiates from ALL. It is their interest in light that quite naturally brought them to looking towards the stars. Coupling that with the way they approach their spiritual way of seeing the Divine with in nature, their interest in astrology was very much an important aspect of what formed the outer part of their religion. The Jews owe much to the Zoroastrians, as do the Christians. It is because of the Zoroastrians that the Jews were given freedom in Babylonia. The Zoroastrians even helped in rebuilding the temple AND passed to the Jews the concept of an evil one, or the Devil. David Hatcher I have come from the unseen world, nor was I always of this world. I was created and have not always been. I belong to Ohrmazd (God), not to Ahriman (Devil) _The Teachings of the Magi_
w25y@vax5.cit.cornell.edu (01/16/91)
It is interesting to note that the Magi belonged to the "old school" of
astrologers who actually made astronomical observations before drawing
their conclusions. In fact, they may have been the last such, since if
you compare the birthdates given for each zodiacal sign in the newspaper
horoscopes with the actual position of the sun on those dates, it becomes
clear that no one has updated those charts for about 2,000 years.
-- Paul Ciszek
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"The trouble with normal is it always gets worse." --Bruce CockburnKevin_Miller.D76_CENTRAL@qmgate.mitre.org (Kevin Miller) (01/16/91)
In article <Jan.9.02.44.52.1991.2636@athos.rutgers.edu> kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie) writes: > In Matthew 2, however, we read of the Magi coming to find Jesus. They are > generally considered to have been astrologers from Persia or Arabia. They > know it is the time for him, they say, because "we saw his star in the > east" (v2). > > Worse yet, the return to their own country (and apparently their religion), > and nobody has even explained The Four Spiritual Laws to them! Not once in > the entire passage does the phrase `substitutionary atonement' appear. I've not heard the term astrologers applied to the Magi. More often than not, I hear them referred to as astronomers, because that better conforms to our present day definitions of astrology and astronomy, particularly because of the religious implications of astrology. Also, the Four Spiritual Laws is one modern day toolused to present the gospel: they didn't know about it then. If I remember my theological terminology correctly, 'substitutionary atonement' refers to Jesus Christ's death and resurrection. Since that hadn't happened yet, maybe it didn't apply to the Magi in the New Testament sense. IMHO the Magi met the basic requirements for being justified: they sought God, worshiped him and obeyed him. In general, I think we should be cautious when we attempt to apply our 20th century definitions to Biblical events. The message of the Bible is still relavent and powerful: just remember the context. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions presented here are mine alone and do not reflect in any way those of The MITRE Corporation. Kevin Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- email: kjm@grotto.mitre.org or Kevin_Miller.D76_Central@qmgate.mitre.org -----------------------------------------
billg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp) (01/21/91)
Food for thought: It has also been hypothesized that the ASTROLOGY practiced by the Magi was more closely related to present day ASTRONOMY than present day Astrology. (8^).
trhan@cac.washington.edu (Teri Rhan) (01/21/91)
[Another response to Kilroy's question about why people aren't
bothered by the Wise Men's astrology. --clh]
About 20 years ago I heard a story that makes for interesting reading
but I have no references to back me up.
Zoroaster was a Prophet of God that lived about 3000 years ago. He
brought teachings to bring people back to God and after a time had
many followers. It was said that one of the followers asked when would
He return (after his death) and He told his followers to look for a
new star in the east and if they followed that star, they would find him
as a newborn baby. So as a result, the Zoroastrians became foremost in
astrology looking for the sign of the return of Zoroaster. When the
Zoroastrian priests, or Magi, came to worship the Lord Jesus, they knew
exactly who to look for and where. They were actually worshiping the
return of Zoroaster as foretold. The ending to the story was the prophesy
had been fulfilled so accurately that this was why there are relatively few
Zoroastrians, they became followers of Christ as a fulfillment of
Zoroaster's revelation.
BTW, Zoroaster also prophesied that in about 3000 years from His time,
God would manifest again in a Messiah who would arise to unite all
peoples and "usher in an era of blessedness and peace". He referred to
this savior as the Shah Bahram, the Promised Lord, the Savior of the
world, the Great Peacmaker.
-Teri
--
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/_____________/ _ ______ ___ ___
/ / / /_____/ / / \ / /
/ / / /___ / / \ \ / /
[Has anybody seen this posting before? My log shows it went out, but
I don't find it. It seems to have arrived complete with a comment
from me already present. Wierd. --clh]betsyp@apollo.com (Betsy Perry) (01/24/91)
In article <Jan.20.15.15.49.1991.16505@athos.rutgers.edu> Teri wrote: >.... The ending to the story was the prophesy >had been fulfilled so accurately that this was why there are relatively few >Zoroastrians, they became followers of Christ as a fulfillment of >Zoroaster's revelation. I can't speak to the rest of the story, but the reason there are relatively few Zoroastrians today is quite simple: They don't accept converts. You're either born Zoroastrian, or you're not. (There was an article in the Wall Street Journal within the last few years about a Canadian who is trying fervently to become an accepted Zoroastrian convert. He's not succeeding.) As to the question of what do Universalists believe about the fate of sinners, I suspect it depends on the Universalist. I reason by the parenthood analogy: I love my daughter. There is nothing that she could do to alter this fact. We are told that God loves us as His children; I therefore believe that we cannot permanently alienate ourselves from that love. (And for those who would argue that it's wrong to judge God's love by human standards, I answer that surely his love is greater, not lesser, than ours.) Betsy Perry
BINDNER@auvm.auvm.edu (01/25/91)
billg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp) writes:
.It has also been hypothesized that the ASTROLOGY practiced by the
.Magi was more closely related to present day ASTRONOMY than present
.day Astrology. (8^).
Ah, no. Modern day astronomers would not attach any meaning to the
conjunctions known as the star. They had to be astrologers to know
what the conjuctions meant. A further thought, magi is the plural of
magician or sorcerer (who usually have to contract with spirits to gain
power). I would much rather believe them astrologers.
Mikebillg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp) (01/27/91)
In article <Jan.25.00.48.13.1991.13301@athos.rutgers.edu> BINDNER@auvm.auvm.edu writes: >billg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp) writes: >.It has also been hypothesized that the ASTROLOGY practiced by the >.Magi was more closely related to present day ASTRONOMY than present >.day Astrology. (8^). > >Ah, no. Modern day astronomers would not attach any meaning to the >conjunctions known as the star. They had to be astrologers to know >what the conjuctions meant. A further thought, magi is the plural of >magician or sorcerer (who usually have to contract with spirits to gain >power). I would much rather believe them astrologers. > >Mike You hit the nail on the head when you say MODERN DAY. We are not discussing Modern Day, we are talking about practices from 2000 years ago. While they were Astrologers, the point is that Astrology as practiced in Jesus's time was more closely related to Modern Day (there's that phrase again) Astronomy than Modern Day Astrology. While Astrologers back then did associate some mystical qualities to the heavens, they did not believe in the horoscope type of Astrology we see so prevalent today. They were more concerned with observing the sky than in using it to make predictions (note I did not say they didn't make predictions, just that this was not their primary emphasis or reason for studying the sky). This brings up another question, is the word MAGI found in the BIBLE or is this simply used based upon tradition? And even if it is in the BIBLE, what is the original Greek word and its meaning (in today's English of course)? After all, they are refered to as MAGI, WISE MEN, KINGS, etc. depending upon what you read. I would go by a proper Greek translation not on tradition here. ["magi" is a transliteration of the Greek word used in Mat. It's often translated "wise men". I don't think "kings" would be a translation. That they were kings would seem to be legend. (Indeed so is the number three, I think. It's probably based on the fact that there were three gifts mentioned.) The abridged Kittel says in non-biblical writings the word can mean a member of the Persian priestly caste, posessor and user of supernatural knowledge and power, magician, or deceiver. Philo seems to think of magoi as doing scientific research. The rabbis use as to mean magician. In Mt. they believe it means those who have special wisdom in reading the stars. --clh]
w25y@vax5.cit.cornell.edu (02/03/91)
For what it's worth, the New American Bible uses the word "astrologers"
instead of magi.
-- Paul Ciszek
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"The trouble with normal is it always gets worse." --Bruce Cockburn