wagner@karazm.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) (01/16/91)
In article <Jan.9.03.43.10.1991.3024@athos.rutgers.edu> farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) writes: >During Paul's time there were already many who had the wrong idea about >Israel and it's future. Paul was compelled to write to the gentile >Christians to remind them of their origine, and the fact that they were >grafted into the house of Israel. He gave them the following warning: >Romans 11:25-27 >================ >"For I would not brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest >ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened >to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in." > >"And all of Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out >of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" > >"For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." Did Paul really expect that some day all of the Jews will be saved? I doubt that this is the case. First of all, this can only happen through faith in Jesus Christ. Those Jews who reject the Messiah to their dying day cannot be saved. We might interpret the above passage to mean that at some future time, all of the Jews would be converted to Christianity. I wouldn't want to rule this out, but I think it unlikely. About the only way 'all Jews' could be converted is if 'all humanity' is converted. But Christ wondered whether he would find *any* faith on the earth when he returned. (Reference escapes me, I don't have my concordance at hand). In addition, Paul wrote in Romans 11:5 "So, too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace." And in Romans 11:13,14 he wrote: "I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save *some* of them." Further, in Romans 9:7,8 he wrote: "Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, 'It is through Isaac that you offspring will be reckoned.' In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it it the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.' The true Israel is the Israel of faith in Christ, the Christian church. I think that by 'all Israel' here what Paul intends is all of God's elect who believe in him, now, or in the future or past. I think he made this clear when he wrote: "Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in." (Rom 11:25) Thus 'all Israel' is a reference, first of all, to 'the full number of the Gentiles', and secondly to the remnant of the Jews that believe in Christ--which remnant included Paul himself, and the other apostles. It may be the the 'hardening in part' of the Jews will be softened at some point in the future. But I don't particularly expect all of them to be converted. I'm not even sure what that would mean, since the definition of 'who is a Jew' is either very legalistic or very vague. David H. Wagner a confessional Lutheran. My opinions and beliefs on this matter are disclaimed by The University of Houston.
YZKCU@cunyvm.bitnet (Yaakov Kayman) (01/22/91)
In article <Jan.16.03.58.28.1991.7477@aramis.rutgers.edu>, wagner@karazm.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) says: > >Did Paul really expect that some day all of the Jews will be saved? I doubt >that this is the case. ... The Christian concept of "salvation" is alien and irrelevant to practic- ing Jews. >Those Jews who reject the Messiah to their dying day cannot be saved. >We might interpret the above passage to mean that at some future time, >all of the Jews would be converted to Christianity. I wouldn't want >to rule this out, but I think it unlikely. Not merely unlikely. It simply will never happen! Get it straight: NO practicing Jew denies Messiah. ALL practicing Jews Deny that J____ is a messiah. > >... >The true Israel is the Israel of faith in C_____, the Christian church. Feh! > >David H. Wagner
hedrick@geneva.rutgers.edu (01/22/91)
Yaakov Kayman: Not merely unlikely. It simply will never happen! Get it straight: NO practicing Jew denies Messiah. ALL practicing Jews Deny that J____ is a messiah. David Wagner: The true Israel is the Israel of faith in C_____, the Christian church. I fear this discussion has gone as far as it can usefully go. We have here two position that I believe simply can't communicate. It seems that Yaakov's statement is true by definition. There are certainly people who otherwise meet the criteria of being Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah. However Orthodox Judaism says as a matter of definition that anyone who has accepted Christ is not a Jew. David's position is also one that -- while certainly based on NT grounds -- can hardly be useful in a discussion of this sort. He is using Israel here in a somewhat metaphorical sense, to refer to those people who part of God's covenant as he sees it. Just as Yaakov excludes Jewish Christians from being Jews by definition, David excludes non-Christian Jews from being part of the true Israel. While such language can be useful within the Church to emphasize the continuity in God's covenant, it is hard to image anything more likely to lead to misunderstanding and ill will in discussions with Jews.
farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) (01/22/91)
In article <Jan.16.03.58.28.1991.7477@aramis.rutgers.edu>, wagner@karazm.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) writes: >In article <Jan.9.03.43.10.1991.3024@athos.rutgers.edu> farkas@eng.sun.com (Frank Farkas) writes: David writes regarding what Paul wrote in Romans 11:25-27: > >Did Paul really expect that some day all of the Jews will be saved? I doubt >that this is the case. Much text deleted. >The true Israel is the Israel of faith in Christ, the Christian church. >I think that by 'all Israel' here what Paul intends is all of God's elect >who believe in him, now, or in the future or past. I think he made this >clear when he wrote: "Israel has experienced a hardening in part until >the full number of the Gentiles has come in." (Rom 11:25) Thus 'all >Israel' is a reference, first of all, to 'the full number of the Gentiles', >and secondly to the remnant of the Jews that believe in Christ--which remnant >included Paul himself, and the other apostles. It may be the the 'hardening >in part' of the Jews will be softened at some point in the future. But I >don't particularly expect all of them to be converted. I'm not even sure >what that would mean, since the definition of 'who is a Jew' is either very >legalistic or very vague. First of all, I don't know which translation you are quoting from. I don't believe that, "until the full number of the Gentiles has come in" is a correct translation. May be a Greek expert can help us out with this. I believe that the more correct translation is "until the fulness of the gentlies be come in". In either case, I believe that you badly misinterpreting what Paul is talking about. He *is* talking to the converted gentiles about the house of Israel, the literal descendents of Jacob. you need to read the entire chapter. I don't understand your comment regarding the truthfulness of what Paul said in Romans 11. Can you please explain? It is apparent that you are not familiar with the great promisses which has has been given to the house of Israel by the Lord. his covenant with them is still in effect. In fact, you are commiting the same error as the converted gentiles did during Paul's time, to whom he wrote the following: Romans 11:25-27 ================ "For I would not brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in." "And all of Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" "For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." I do recommend that you study the Bible regarding the great promisses which were made to the house of Israel (the literal descendents of Jacob). Just about every O.T. prophet had spoke of if. If you would like, I could send you a list of references. >David H. Wagner >a confessional Lutheran. With brotherly love, Frank ["full number" is in the NRSV. The word is "pleroma". It has a variety of meanings covering totality, fullness, etc. It could more literally be translated "a full measure of Gentiles", which could mean either all of them or all of some particular set. You probably want to use "full number" rather than "fulness" simply as a matter of English style, since people are discrete objects that are counted. The word was used in secular writing to refer to things like a fully laden ship or a crowd of people, but could also have the implication of totality. "The full number of.." seems to be a calculated ambiguity which reflects an ambiguity in the Greek. The question is whether it is all Gentiles or all Gentiles that are going to be saved. (By the way, I have not suddenly acquired expertise in Greek, but a new reference book - the concise edition of Kittel's theological dictionary of the NT -- concise in the sense of being only 1300 pages of fine print.) --clh]
ta00est@unccvax.uncc.edu (elizabeth s tallant) (01/23/91)
David, Thank you so much for setting the record straight. After an extended period of deep soul-searching, I came to the same conclusion that you have. I believe that 'all of Israel' means all of God's people. There are a variety of references in the OT which support our conclusion. One is in the latter part of Isaiah 65 (if that's not the right passage write back - my Bible is at home) in which God tells the OT Jews that he will utterly destroy all but a remenant of them and that He will call his people by a different name. The author of the Living Bible suggests that this name could be Christians. I wish that a few more people would reach this conclusion, because where I come from, many people have confused the state of Israel with the Israel of the Bible, and have some really weird ideas....... Some people have suggested that there will be some big happening in which many unbelieving Jews will suddenly convert. However, I found no evidence which I believe supports this claim. I have spoken to people who have a contrary belief and have read a little material on the subject. So, far what I have found is that many of the references that they used were actually OT prophecies about Jesus. They use references such as, "the reaper will overtake the plowman" - Amos, which , according to the disciples, were references to Jesus Christ's first coming. Elizabeth
benning@uunet.uu.net (01/27/91)
In article <Jan.23.03.17.09.1991.1659@athos.rutgers.edu>, ta00est@unccvax.uncc.edu (elizabeth s tallant) writes: > > > Some people have suggested that there will be some big happening in which > many unbelieving Jews will suddenly convert. However, I found no evidence > which I believe supports this claim. > > Elizabeth If I may comment. Today, the number of Jewish men and women who are re-examining the validity of the Messiahship of Jesus is very large. Just five years ago, there were only a few Messianic congregations in the USA, one or two in Israel and very few in the rest of the world. Today, there are over one hundred Messianic congregations in the USA alone. You can go to about any major city and find one. World wide, the number is growing like crazy. There are even Messianic congregations in New Zeland! If you get the chance to go to a UMJC (united messianic jewish conference) you will be quite superised at how many Jewish people have examined the claims of Jesus and had their heart turn home. I'm talking numbers from orthodox to reformed. Even Jewish brothers and sisters who fell into the occult! You can meet rabbis who said they had to determine on their own, and found that passages like Isaiah 53 could no longer be ignored. The Lord is moving fast on his people, and I know my Jewish brothers and sisters who don't believe contend with these claims but non the less, they are true. F.Y.I. B. Benning
YZKCU@cunyvm.bitnet (Yaakov Kayman) (01/29/91)
In article <Jan.27.02.52.13.1991.18864@athos.rutgers.edu>, abvax!iccgcc.DNET!benning@uunet.uu.net says: > >In article <Jan.23.03.17.09.1991.1659@athos.rutgers.edu>, >ta00est@unccvax.uncc.edu (elizabeth s tallant) writes: >> > > >> >> Some people have suggested that there will be some big happening in which >> many unbelieving Jews will suddenly convert. However, I found no evidence >> which I believe supports this claim. >> > >> Elizabeth > > > If I may comment. Today, the number of Jewish men and women who are >re-examining the validity of the Messiahship of J____ is very large. (Assuming this makes it past your moderator, who has shown that he is occasionally not above being completely one-sided,) Not as many as you would hope! More Jews today are returning to the Judaic faith of their fathers. I'll leave you to make whatever unknow- ing pronouncements you wish about the Jews' Torah/Tanakh, which was given only to them, as I no longer care to engage in teaching any non-Jew MY Torah for purposes inimical to my religion. The Jewish position is that the Torah/Tanakh make no mention or allusion whatsoever to J____, even though they do discuss Messiah extensively. NO practicing Jew takes the various claims about J____'s status (as a god, as a prophet, as a rabbi, or as a messiah) seriously. >B. Benning Yaakov K. -------- Yaakov Kayman (212) 903-3666 City University of New York BITNET: YZKCU@CUNYVM "Lucky is the shepherd, and lucky his flock Internet: YZKCU@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU about whom the wolves complain"
benning@uunet.uu.net (02/08/91)
In article <Jan.29.03.17.44.1991.23375@athos.rutgers.edu>, YZKCU@cunyvm.bitnet (Yaakov Kayman) writes: > In article <Jan.27.02.52.13.1991.18864@athos.rutgers.edu>, > abvax!iccgcc.DNET!benning@uunet.uu.net says: >> >>In article <Jan.23.03.17.09.1991.1659@athos.rutgers.edu>, >>ta00est@unccvax.uncc.edu (elizabeth s tallant) writes: >>> >> If I may comment. Today, the number of Jewish men and women who are >>re-examining the validity of the Messiahship of J____ is very large. > > > Not as many as you would hope! More Jews today are returning to the > Judaic faith of their fathers. I'll leave you to make whatever unknow- > ing pronouncements you wish about the Jews' Torah/Tanakh, which was given > only to them, as I no longer care to engage in teaching any non-Jew MY > Torah for purposes inimical to my religion. The Jewish position is that > the Torah/Tanakh make no mention or allusion whatsoever to J____, even > though they do discuss Messiah extensively. NO practicing Jew takes > the various claims about J____'s status (as a god, as a prophet, as a > rabbi, or as a messiah) seriously. > >>B. Benning > > Yaakov K. > -------- > Yaakov Without turning this into a spitting contest, I will only enter one mans comment. The man is Ari Ben Israel. He was a child in one of the death camps in Germany. He saw both his parents die there. For most of his life he hated Germans and Christians because of this episode in his life. The man is in his sixties but he looks like he has been through two lives. The pain of his life in the death camp has taken its toll. This man, who hated Germans and Christians, was one day confronted by a Christian woman. She told him Jesus was his Messiah. He spit at her. Told her Jesus was responsible for the death of his family. She bowed down to Ari and said he could take his anger out on her, but Jesus was still his Messiah. After a time, he began to wonder about this womans attitude and her words. So he purchaced a New Testament. After reading it he looked up and said Lord, if these things are true and you are the Messiah, let me know. I thought the New Testament was an anti-Jewish book but I have found it to be very Jewish and now I wonder how much else I thought was right, could be lies. Show me Lord!! It wasn't long before he received his answer. This man who once hated Germans and Christians (Jewish and Gentile) now has a ministry bringing healing between these two countries. Ari had a position in the Israeli government to be a liaison between the two countries (I don't know if he still holds the post). THE MAN IS COMPLETELY CHANGED!!! His message? It is plain and simple. To his beloved brothers and sisters, he says: "Jesus is the Messiah, whether you accept this or not. He is the Messiah of Israel and the whole world." Sincerely, B. Benning
benning@uunet.uu.net (02/08/91)
[This is a correction to an article posted earlier in this group, about Ari Ben Israel. --clh] I'm sorry. I said Ari was in his sixties. This is not true. He is in his late fourties. He entered the death camps as a young child. Sorry for the mistake. > > Sincerely, B. Benning