jmoon@lehi3b15.csee.lehigh.edu (Jonggu Moon [890911]) (01/09/91)
What about dolphins ? What about chipmunks ? What makes you so sure ? The Bible never says "Dogs do not have souls". ^>*<^jmoon [This gets into a lot of controversial issues on the nature of humanity and our relation to the rest of creation. The traditional view, which I believe most Christians still believe, lodges our spiritual nature in a soul or spirit (which some people distinguish, using arguments that I've never been able to make any sense out of), which is more or less separate from the body, and surives its death. There's a critique of this view that seems to have gained wide circulation only in the 20th Cent. A classic reference is Nygren's "Agape and Eros". The critique points out the the concept of immortality of the soul is really Greek, and not Biblical. It is based on the Greek idea of preexistent souls that become entrapped in the material world. At death the souls go free and ascend back to the heavenly realms. The Hebrews knew nothing of this. The Hebrew word translated "soul" really means the whole person, and appears in the OT many places that are not translated soul. This view has been summarized as "man doesn't *have* a soul, he *is* a soul." As far as Christian doctrine, we believe not in the immortality of the soul, but rather in the resurrection of the body. Christ was resurrected, and appeared in a glorified body. There is no clear teaching that requires us to think of a disembodied soul. There are a number of passages that talk about soul, spirit, etc. Some interpreters come up with analyses of humanity based on these, claiming precise definitions of what each part is. This assumes that the terms are being used as specific terms for different parts of the human nature. However one can just as well read them as referring to function. That is, we all agree that people have minds (though sometimes I have my doubts about some of our users). But we don't expect to localize the mind to some specific organ, nor do we expect the mind to survive death of the brain. It's a function, not a part of the body. If you accept this analysis, then you don't necessarily have the sharp demarcation between entities that have souls and those that do not. If you think of the soul as a term for our spiritual functions, rather than as a separate thing that one could in theory remove surgically if only the surgeon had an appropriately metaphysical knife, then it becomes possible to imagine a spectrum of "soulfulness". Different kinds of animals could have different levels of responsibility and different qualities of spiritual life. Since one of the participants in this group is of the canine persuation, perhaps he would be interested in commenting on this issue. As moderator I would certainly not wish to put myself in the position of denying Brandy a soul. And I confidently expect to meet him in heaven. --clh]
ph600fev@sdcc14.ucsd.edu (Robert O'Barr) (01/15/91)
In article <Jan.9.03.14.30.1991.2869@athos.rutgers.edu> jmoon@lehi3b15.csee.lehigh.edu (Jonggu Moon [890911]) writes: >What about dolphins ? What about chipmunks ? >What makes you so sure ? The Bible never says "Dogs do not have souls". > >^>*<^jmoon The bible infact seems to indicate they will go to heaven (or atleast they will be with Christ when he rules on his throne) Revelations 5:11-13 "And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever." Who lives under the earth, in the sea, and in the sky? Man? Since men dont live in such places it seems that this passage refers to all of God's creation. Sincerely Robert O'Barr
lums@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu (Andy Lumsdaine) (01/15/91)
In article <Jan.9.03.14.30.1991.2869@athos.rutgers.edu> jmoon@lehi3b15.csee.lehigh.edu (Jonggu Moon [890911]) writes: >What about dolphins ? What about chipmunks ? >What makes you so sure ? The Bible never says "Dogs do not have souls". > >^>*<^jmoon > >[ some text deleted ] >If you accept this analysis, then you don't necessarily have the sharp >demarcation between entities that have souls and those that do not. >If you think of the soul as a term for our spiritual functions, rather >than as a separate thing that one could in theory remove surgically if >only the surgeon had an appropriately metaphysical knife, then it >becomes possible to imagine a spectrum of "soulfulness". Different >kinds of animals could have different levels of responsibility and >different qualities of spiritual life. > >Since one of the participants in this group is of the canine >persuation, perhaps he would be interested in commenting on this >issue. As moderator I would certainly not wish to put myself in the >position of denying Brandy a soul. And I confidently expect to meet >him in heaven. Didn't C.S. Lewis speculate in one of his essays (or books) about animals going to heaven? I seem to remember that he made an argument something like: 1) People go to heaven because they are saved through Christ. The mechanism for this could be that association with Christ allows some of God to "rub off" on the Christian, thereby changing his soul and mind so that (s)he can be saved. 2) Animals may go to heaven because they are saved through their owners -- some of the owner's consciousness (and therefore salvation, if the owner is saved) "rubs off" on the animal. I think his argument went something like this. I can't seem to find where he wrote about this, though. Does anyone know for sure? If so, please correct any flaws is my summary! Also, in _The_Great_Divorce_, he portrayed one of the characters as having some animals with her -- presumably saved by her attention. I should also point out that, as with many of his speculations, Lewis was very emphatic that this was only a speculation. Please note that this posting is not any kind of endorsement of Lewis' argument about animals going to heaven -- it's just food for thought. I'm not really sure what I think about animals going to heaven. Lewis' ideas usually give me a pause for consideration, though. Regards, A.L. Andrew Lumsdaine "We don't understand the software, and lums@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu sometimes we don't understand the hardware, MIT RLE but we can *see* the blinking lights!"
billy@tcom.stc.co.uk (Billy Khan) (01/21/91)
I hope that dogs and things do go to heaven. My own dog is ill and I will have to have her put down sometime soon. It will be nice to see her there!
drew@anucsd.anu.edu.au (Drew Corrigan) (01/21/91)
In soc.religion.christian (Any Lumsdaine) writes: >Didn't C.S. Lewis speculate in one of his essays (or books) about >animals going to heaven? >[speculation deleted] Heaven ought to be full by now! Just imagine all the pets people have had through the centuries. And more so, all the other animals: insects, microbes, spiders, birds, flys (ugh!), that might be there - preserved for all eternity, in ever growing numbers. No wonder New Jerusalem eventually comes to earth! (Heaven will be so full, earth will be the only place left for God and his family to live!) All in jest, Drew Corrigan. -- Drew Corrigan. Department of Computer Science, Australian National University
AMillar@cup.portal.com (01/27/91)
I don't know whether dogs will go to heaven, but I can tell one thing I read in the Bible. In Genesis, God tells Noah that "from each man I will demand an accounting" and "from each animal I will demand an accounting". I don't remember the exact chapter and verse, but those are the words used in the NIV. This doesn't necessarily mean animals will go to Heaven, but God is going to talk to them somewhere. It seems plausible that this will be in Heaven. And who are we to limit what God does in Heaven? :-) - Alan Millar AMillar@cup.portal.com [I assume this is a reference to Gen 9:5. This passage says that God will exact a reckoning of some sort against any person or animal that sheds blood. This is not necessarily after death. It could be be taken simply as requiring punishment for murder. Ex. 21:28 is sometimes cited as implementing this. --clh]
psburns@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (MAUREEN BURNS) (01/30/91)
In article <Jan.20.14.19.48.1991.13898@athos.rutgers.edu>, billy@tcom.stc.co.uk (Billy Khan) writes... > > I hope that dogs and things do go to heaven. My own dog is ill >and I will have to have her put down sometime soon. It will be nice to >see her there! I have tuned in a few times to track this raging controversy about dogs in heaven. It's kind of entertaining, because in the great scheme of things, WHAT DOES IT MATTER? I know I am going to heaven, and occasionally I like to imagine what it will be like. I like to imagine there will be the very best skiing, the most fabulous golfing, the deepest richest chocolate, all the shoes I can put my feet into, etc. I would love to see my Greta, the German Shepherd I grew up with. But I have to snap myself back to what God tells us about what heaven is really like. Look at Isaiah 6, where he gets a glimpse of heaven. I heard a sermon by R.C. Sproul on this chapter, and it left me breathless. I realize that when I get to heaven, I will be so blown away by God's glory, brilliance, perfection and majesty, that I will probably be on the ground, with my face buried in homage and worship! I think we will be so overwhelmed by His power and awesomeness and holiness that we will not even be aware of anything else like skiing or golfing or chocolate or dogs. (Well, maybe chocolate...ha ha!) We simply cannot imagine in our limited little minds how we could possible be satisfied with praising and worshipping God day and night. But HE IS WORTHY! And when we get there, we will truly understand it, and have the desire to give to Him what He deserves and desires. And we will be satisfied deeply with it. I know I can't wait to get there! To be in the presence of my Jesus!! WOW ! For eternity!!! Wow! See you there! Maureen Burns
schram@tramp.Colorado.EDU (SCHRAM STEVEN P) (02/08/91)
[Suzanne Forgach wrote, on the question of whether dogs go to heaven >If the lion and the lamb will be lying down together there, then it sounds >like there will be animals there. I myself think you will see your dog again. --clh] I could be mistaken, but I thought that the lion and the lamb lying together was a prophecy about the world, not about heaven. -- *********************************************** * Steven Schram -- schram@tramp.colorado.edu * ***********************************************
ta00est@unccvax.uncc.edu (elizabeth s tallant) (02/12/91)
In article <Feb.8.02.46.25.1991.15466@athos.rutgers.edu>, schram@tramp.Colorado.EDU (SCHRAM STEVEN P) writes: > [Suzanne Forgach wrote, on the question of whether dogs go to heaven > >If the lion and the lamb will be lying down together there, then it sounds > >like there will be animals there. I myself think you will see your dog again. > --clh] > > I could be mistaken, but I thought that the lion and the lamb lying together > was a prophecy about the world, not about heaven. > -- > *********************************************** > * Steven Schram -- schram@tramp.colorado.edu * > *********************************************** If you read the story of Noah in Genesis, you can find that Noah did not gather all of the animals by himself. The Bible says that God told the animals to go to Noah, and that the animals obeyed. Thus, animals are aware of and have demonstrated obedience to God. Just think of all the animals that have died in saving their owners' lives. Obviously, compassion and love are not just God's or mans' characteristics. One night, I recently got on a strange train of thought about animals being in Heaven. I wondered if they need salvation. Then I recalled that the animals in the garden of Eden never committed any sin, and that their "animal" behavior came about as a result of man's sin. The animals never posed a threat to man while they were in the garden, but after man was cast out, the animals posed a threat. Next, in prophecies such as Elijah, the Bible says that when God establishes His kingdom on Mt. Zion, that animals that are now meat-eaters will eat grass instead of each other. It says that snakes will no longer pose a threat to human beings. Further, Revelation tells us that when God establishes His kingdom on earth, that all of the creatures of the land, air, and sea will praise Him. Since people don't live in the air or the sea, then the Bible must be talking about the animals. I once read in Billy Graham's column a question about whether or not animals would go to Heaven. Graham's answer was something like "... in my opinion, yes." So, I agree with Mr. Hedrick. I think that these references are more than just symbolic. When I go to Heaven, I expect to find all of my hound dogs there. Elizabeth
kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie) (02/14/91)
If you believe Don Bluth, they do. 8-) Jonggu Moon raised some questions about the Spiritual Nature of animals, and Our Incurably Orthodox Moderator wrote a pretty good summary of the basic views. He also wrote: >Since one of the participants in this group is of the canine persuation, >perhaps he would be interested in commenting on this issue. As moderator >I would certainly not wish to put myself in the position of denying Brandy >a soul. And I confidently expect to meet him in heaven. Unfortunately, our lease does not allow Brandy to come inside the house (I hope heaven is a bit more understanding about mud on the carpet 8-), and it is too cold out to set up the terminal on the porch. SO, the WonderDog has pretty much had his net access cut off until Spring. But we discussed this over Oreo Cookies [tm], and I'll try to convey the impression that I got (remembering that Brandy is a Taoist). Basically, his attitude on the entire matter seems to be "Well, if I go to heaven, that might be neat. But if I don't, that's okay too." (This being a paraphrase.) As for a soul, well, the whole idea is a bit too abstract for him. He didn't bring it up, but I feel obliged to state that Brandy is a known killer, having dismembered and/or eaten numerous lesser creatures (and probably a few larger ones). It is not likely that he would have acted differently had he believed they had souls. For that matter, I do not doubt that he would be both willing and able to seriously injure a person, if he felt they presented a threat to himself or his household. It is also apparent that he does not consider any of this in the least `wrong'. (Presumably such things do not go on in heaven, if indeed animals are allowed in. Does anybody have opinions on Dog Purgatory? 8-) What his victims will think of this on seeing him in heaven I am not sure; but then, I'm not sure what I'd say to one of the cows I've eaten, should I meet one in heaven . . . In closing, let me provide a quote which may give a slightly different view of the question: kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu Darren F. Provine ...njin!gboro!kilroy "High up in the courts of Heaven to-day A little dog-angel waits; With the other angels he will not play, But he sits alone at the gates." -- Norah Mary Holland, `The Little Dog-Angel'