gdsimpson@amherst.bitnet (01/30/91)
The following are a few questions that have been rattling around in my mind
for a very long time and I would appreciate it very much if anyone out there
who can bring me closer to coming to terms with these problems would post a
message in response:
Thank you.
1. If God says that he "requires mercy not sacrifice", then how are we to
understand Jesus' sacrifice on the cross? Was he a sacrifice that somehow
allowed God to forgive us of our sin, or was Jesus a way-shower who brought a
saving message to Mankind and was killed as an incedental part of his mission
(In the same way that Martin Luther King Jr. was killed as an incedental part
of bringing a message of racial equality)?
2. In Luke 18:9-14 tells a parable about a tax-collector who went to the temple
and "would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said,'God, have
mercy on me, a sinner'" and Jesus says that this man "went home justified
before God". Is being justified the same thing as being saved and if so, does
that mean that salvation is possible apart from Christianity? The man in this
story did not say for example "I believe that Jesus is the Christ etc..." He
only acklowedged his sin and his desire for forgiveness. And if this is enough
to gain God's pardon does that mean that it really does not matter what
religious form you use as long as that essential attitude repentance is
present?
3. What does it mean when, in the story of the Samaritan woman at the well
(John 4:1-24), Jesus says "the true worshipers will worship the Father in
spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks"?
Is this just the kind of simple streamlined religion suggested above or is it
something else?
4. If what God really wants is "worship in spirit & truth" is it plausible that
another religion such as Islam (which says that it respects the truth in
Christian and non-Christian really aren't meaningful catgories as far as God
is concerned? Can't one find Muslims or Taoists or Buddhists who worship in
spirit & truth. At the time of Jesus there was an argument between the Jews and
the Samaratans about what is the proper way to worship God; should worship
center around the the temple in Jerusalem or the mountain? Can't it be argued
that mainstream Christians fail to see that Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists
are the Samaritans of our own time? And Maybe the time WILL come when human
beings will worship the Father "neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem", nor
in Mecca nor on the banks of the Ganges nor the peaks of the Himalayas nor in
St. Peter's but in Spirit and Truth and Love.
PLEASE if anybody has ANY thoughts on the above, either post them or send me
email. Thanks again :)
Peace,
[There is no generally agreed theory on the atonement, i.e. on how it
is that Christ's death saves us. You seem to be bothered by the
concept that God required Jesus as a sacrifice before he could forgive
us. There are several other ways of understanding his death. For
exmaple, consider the following: The problem is not that God is unable
fron his side to forgive us without Christ's death. It is that sin by
its very nature isolates us from God, even though he is willing to
forgive us. What Christ represents is God joining us on our side of
the wall set up by our sin, accepting its full consequences. That way
the wall can no longer separate us from him. It was natural for early
Christians, who as Jews (or for that matter pagans) were accustomed to
sacrifices as part of their religion, to use that as a metaphor for
what Christ did. But some of the implications we draw from the
metaphor may not be necessary.
There are also varying ideas on the situation of non-Christians,
ranging from the concept that what Christ did may benefit people even
if they don't fully know about it, to the more traditional view that
you must confess Christ's name to be saved. I think most people fall
somewhere in the middle. Most Christians are uncomfortable with ideas
that looks like they say it doesn't matter what you believe, but it's
also typical to make allowances for people who haven't had the
opportunity to hear about Christ. Until Christ had died and been
resurrected, it's hard to see how people could believe in him in quite
the way we do now.
--clh]demitrio@husc9.harvard.edu (suzanne demitrio) (02/06/91)
In article <Jan.30.04.32.10.1991.16496@athos.rutgers.edu> gdsimpson@amherst.bitnet writes: >1. If God says that he "requires mercy not sacrifice", then how are we to >understand Jesus' sacrifice on the cross? Roach's response to this question, in article <Feb.2.22.56.42.1991.27174 @athos.rutgers.edu>, is splendid! -- and it reminded me of nothing so much as St. Anselm of Canterbury's argument in *Why God Became Man* (Cur Deus Homo). You should find this and read it, if you're interested in this question: it's short, and clear, and very good. My main sticking-point in returning to the Church two years ago was that I didn't understand the necessity of the Crucifixion; it was while writing a paper on this piece of Anselm that the problem suddenly made sense to me. I find in general that looking up theological questions in Augustine, Anselm, or Aquinas (in that order) often helps tremendously. Even if one doesn't revere them as saints or Doctors of the Church or whatever, they were nevertheless extremely bright guys who thought through many of Christianity's problems {...which last hints at where I stand on the Scripture/Tradition spectrum, but I hope to post more on that later}.
mib@ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell) (02/27/91)
[to OFM: I've pruned this a little, but since it was a set of replies
to another's questions, I left some context. If you think this still
includes too much of the original text, just drop the posting. ]
In article <Jan.30.04.32.10.1991.16496@athos.rutgers.edu> gdsimpson@amherst.bitnet writes:
The following are a few questions that have been rattling around in
my mind for a very long time and I would appreciate it very much if
anyone out there who can bring me closer to coming to terms with
these problems would post a message in response:
1. If God says that he "requires mercy not sacrifice", then how are
we to understand Jesus' sacrifice on the cross?
I understand the atonement to be a demonstration of God's love. At
the least, it shows that God is willing to let us destroy things. "If
you love somebody, set them free" is a good motto, and God seems to
have done just that.
The important thing about the crucifixion is the meaning behind it.
All analogies eventually break down, be they "sacrifice" or any other.
2. In Luke 18:9-14 tells a parable about a tax-collector who went
to the temple and "would not even look up to heaven, but beat his
breast and said,'God, have mercy on me, a sinner'" and Jesus says
that this man "went home justified before God". Is being justified
the same thing as being saved and if so, does that mean that
salvation is possible apart from Christianity? The man in this
story did not say for example "I believe that Jesus is the Christ
etc..." He only acklowedged his sin and his desire for forgiveness.
And if this is enough to gain God's pardon does that mean that it
really does not matter what religious form you use as long as that
essential attitude repentance is present?
This is kind of a strange question. By the same standard, one would
have to wonder about Moses and Elijah! After all, they didn't say "I
believe that Jesus is the Christ etc...." For those who like a
religion of rules, they would say the Jesus changed the rules, but not
until the Resurrection.
But there is something more. This is also a story about just such a
religion of rules. God desires actions, repentance, and love. The
ritual observance of the pharisee in the same parable earned him
nothing, for he was trying to earn things from God. The
tax-collecter, instead, admitted his total inability and was then
given everything by God. Perhaps we should learn from this!
3. What does it mean when, in the story of the Samaritan woman at
the well (John 4:1-24), Jesus says "the true worshipers will
worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of
worshipers the Father seeks"? Is this just the kind of simple
streamlined religion suggested above or is it something else?
"Streamlined religion"? Well, I don't believe that "religion" (in the
sense of rituals and observances, be they sacraments or "I believe
that Jesus is the Christ etc...." statements) gain us anything from
God. Rather they are for our benefit in understanding and worshipping
God.
4. If what God really wants is "worship in spirit & truth" is it
plausible that another religion such as Islam [has some validity].
I would agree with this sentiment. I don't think God demands
adherence to simple formulas, doctrines, or behaviors. God is
interested in our whole being, and nothing we do is separable.
-mib