kamphau@oktext.sbc.com (Mark Kamphaus) (02/28/91)
In article <Feb.25.10.05.07.1991.2422@athos.rutgers.edu> gross@dg-rtp.dg.com (Gene Gross) writes: regarding the pretribulation rapture view- > >One of the things that has bothered me about the pretrib rapture view is >that it seems at odds with what God has done before. Consider: I find the pretrib view to be the most consistent. I will try to show where the differences are by how the 'types' have been assigned. > >1. Noah and his family protected in the *midst* of the flood and not >taken out of it. There is a very curious period of seven days before the rain begins that the ark is sealed. I believe this relates directly to a rapture prior to the seven years of tribulation. Noah would be a type of Jesus. Noah and his family are saved and are in the ark. The flood is outside of them. They are sealed within. I would understand the point better if Noah was outside in the rain with everyone else, but seven days prior to the rain, they are called inside and sealed (separated) from the outside. This suggests to me that there will be a calling of those are in Christ and they will likewise be separated from the torrentential uotpouring of wrath. I have to conclude that God gave a physical 'ark' to physically separate Noah from the flood. I see the same physical separation for the church. It is important to notice also that God is protecting Noah by having him in th ark. Any other view would seem contradictory as the 'righteous' is left in the flood bu only given a life preserver. If there is a physical separation prior to the flood then it supports a physical removal (separation by rapture) of the Church befor the tribulation. >2. Rahab protected during the fall of Jericho and not taken out of it. Here I make a different analogy, Rahab was one who was to be destroyed but was saved through her faith. Rahab is represenative of the remnant of Isreal to be saved in the last days, when God through the tribulation brings them to repentance. The Faithful are marching around the walls, And just as Jesus returns with His Saints, (with and not for, so they had to get there somehow) Joshua marched around the city with faithful believers. Rahab didn't really believe until the persecution came. While this maybe true of some 'sunday morning' christians, I do not believe that this is representative of the Church. Rahab would not represent the already believing, as we see her as a model as one who through tribulation, or at least the beginning of it, turned to God. >3. The Israelites protected during the coming of God's wrath upon the >Egyptians who held them in bondage. Again, they were not taken out of >the situation. This relates to the remant of Isreal again and not the Church. There are Three groups that will be saved. 1) the Church, 2) a faithful remnant of Isreal, 3) a faithful remnant of the Arabs. The remnants will be taken into the tribulation to bring them to repeantance, but the church which is the believing Body, has no need to undergo this. They have already repented and accepted Jesus. >4. The three Hebrews were not spared being thrown into the furnace. >God protected them in the midst of the flames, while the guards taking >them to the furnace died from the radiant heat. I think the key here is they were three Hebrews. The Church is usually portrayed as Gentile and Female (The Bride of Christ). To me this would be indicitive that it represents the promises to Abraham, Moses, and David, And basically the bulk of hebraic traditions. In themselves they could not save but the fourth, Jesus, was able to preserve them through there trials. That is to confirm that were are not saved by the law but through Christ. >5. Daniel protected in the midst of the lion's den. And yet again we >see God not taking His servant out of the tribulation. Again I see this as the remnant of Isreal and not the Church. >Then I think about the Christian martyrs of history and wonder, how is >it that we can even begin to think that God will remove us, that He will >reverse Himself in these last days? I find this to be a strange comment. I have to ask, based on the preceeding five reasons that supposedly demonstrate that God will protect his people, then why didn't he proptect the martyrs? Pointing to the martyrs contridicts the premise that God will take action to protect His people. If God has protected his people, who will be martyred? I see the protection of the church to be through the rapture, and the tribulation used to bring the unbelieving remnants to God through Christ. During the tribulation, a remnant will turn to God and some will be martyred, Those turning during the tribulation are not spared the tribulation but are brought to repentance through it. >And your other comment really interests me. If, as the pretrib view >posits, all Christians are gone, then who will remain to explain the >Gospel to those going through the Great Tribulation? And doesn't this >require the working of the Holy Spirit? The 144,000 who are not the Church (GENTILES) but those named by tribe of Israel. There are alos plenty of partime christians and even athiests who know the Bible very well. Christianinty won't disappear from the earth, just the true believers. This is probably how the antichrist will gain so much control over religions. The TV evangilists are going to need more money and an explaination to explain where everyone went :-). And the Holy Spirit will be active on the Earth during the tribulation. The 144,000 are sealed with it. I dont see the relevance of that question. The Holy Spirit can operate independently of the Church; although it certainly operates within the Church also. I hope this shows the pretrib perspective a little clearer, and addressed the concerns Gene expressed. mark
wfg@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Frank Galneder) (03/08/91)
In soc.religion.christian, kamphau@oktext.sbc.com (Mark Kamphaus) writes: > There is a very curious period of seven days before the rain begins that > the ark is sealed. I believe this relates directly to a rapture prior to > the seven years of tribulation. Noah would be a type of Jesus. > Noah and his family are saved and are in the ark. Mark, your point here is interesting but in my own mind needs some clarification. From my reading of Gen 7:1-17, it is not clear to me that Noah, his family, and the animals are in a sealed ark for 7 days prior to the rain beginning. Especially examine verse 11 which pinpoints the exact day the rain and flood began. Then, verse 13 says "On the very same day..." they all entered the ark. I wonder if it is possible that 7 days were set aside for all the animals to be gathered together to enter the ark on the day the rain began. If this is reasonable, then it may suggest that the 7 years of the 70th week of Daniel will include a time of regathering of the remaining elect (the fullness of the Gentiles coming in) before the pouring out of God's wrath. What do you think? Frank